Engine monitors

ScottM

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Now that I have the new GPS installed my last instrument whole is available again. It had been used to house a jack for the serial programing of the KLN90B.

I am thinking of using that whole for an engine monitor. I currently have a single channel EGT/CHT.

So first I should ask is it even worthwhile to get an engine monitor for a single engine O-320 Lycoming or they just too bullet proof to really have to worry about running it poorly?

If I do get a monitor which one, JPI or EI and why?
 
So first I should ask is it even worthwhile to get an engine monitor for a single engine O-320 Lycoming or they just too bullet proof to really have to worry about running it poorly?
I've got no opinion on which engine monitor to get. I am surprised, however, that with your history with that engine, you're even asking this question.

This is a case of never having too much information. When you get the data and understand what it's telling you, you can run the engine whichever way you want, and catch problems sooner.
 
I've got no opinion on which engine monitor to get. I am surprised, however, that with your history with that engine, you're even asking this question.
Why do you say that? The engine has always worked fine. The problems I have had have all been cylinder ADs. But even though I had to pull the top twice the engine was always running great. I just stayed ahead of any potential failure.

The only two problems I ever had that have been close to engine issues was that I had a vacuum pump failure in flight (night VMC) and a AP cracked a fitting on the oil cooler. That was leaking oil, not a catastrophic loss.
 
There's no question in my mind that having an engine monitor is a huge benefit. You'll need to learn how to interpret the data. Then you'll be able to spot problems 10 or 100 hours before they become an issue. The single probe is probably so inacurate that it could just as well not be there.

The O360 is a simple engine, but no engine is even close to bulletproof. Lean correctly on the ground (90% of pilots don't IME), learn how the normalize mode works and how to lean by target EGT. I like the JPIs, but their user interface is terrible...
 
Well, you're running a carbureted O-320 in an installation that generally seems to have few issues and, as you've pointed out, your problems have been cylinder ADs and then things that an engine monitor would not likely have helped. However, it's a really cool thing to have, so I'd put one in anyway.

The one question I'd have is how long you're planning on keeping this plane, or if you were planning on upgrading in the near future. The fact that you just had the 430 put in makes me think you're likely going to keep it, so then it'd probably be more worthwhile. If you're planning on selling it I'm not sure I'd bother putting the effort in, although it would make the plane more appealing to someone looking.

As to which one, I've been looking at the Gemini and the JPI. The JPI looks cooler, but (at least on the twins) is more expensive. I'd likely go with the JPI just for name recognition, though.

Interpreting the data is the big thing. Our tech reps complain non-stop about people who buy these things and then misinterpret data and call with all sorts of "problems." Make sure you know the difference between a problem and something that's always been a certain way (and that's fine), you just didn't know because you didn't have the equipment.
 
sometimes having an engine monitor leads to too much information.

The O-320 is pretty reliable. Do you really want to know if the CHT on
one cylinder is too hot? Are you sure it's not the probe or the monitor
calibration? You might end up chasing something ($$$) that wouldn't
actually have caused a problem.

Something to think about (I also have the O-320 and have a GEM
engine monitor)
 
I think an engine monitor can be very useful, both for peace of mind in the soup or at night where the engine always sounds different, and for troubleshooting ignition issues.

I consider them a requirement for operating FI engines lean of peak, but that doesn't apply to you.

Still, you can get fuel flow and OAT with a decent monitor and get early warning of all sorts of potential problems. Just be sure you take the time to get a good idea of what your engine looks like on the monitor when it's "normal" before running after problems.
 
I have carbureted O-320's on the Apache... I have a single cylinder EGT on each engine... I have thought about a stack of hi tech led bars (big ego boost, and I do like gadgets), but decided that it made it through 52 yrs - and a pile of ham fisted pilots - and will likely continue to do so through the normal procedure of cutting the oil filters, etc ...

denny-o
 
I highly recommend the combined digital-analog JPI EDM-700 system. The 2.25 inch device fits neatly into space below the clock in the upper left corner of the panel. The analog bars provide a quick means of comparing cylinders, and the "normalize" function (after engine is stabilized in cruise, hit "normalize" and all four bars are set to equal height halfway up -- any change in one cylinder is immediately apparent as that bar goes out of line with the other three) is great for detecting problems when you're not monitoring the gauge closely. The digital readout below the bars can be left in scan mode (shows EGT and CHT side by side for one cylinder at a time in rotation -- about 3 seconds and then it steps to the next) or manually cycled to one cylinder (or to the other available digital data -- battery voltage, oil temp, CHT cooling rate in degF/min, and difference between hottest and coldest cylinder). The system now includes an available fuel flow readout if you want to put a flowmeter in the fuel line (wasn't available when we bought ours -- wish it had been).

We had the EDM-700 engine analyzer on our Grumman AA-5A Cheetah for five years (700 hours) before we sold the plane. The installation we had was a full four-cylinder EGT and CHT plus oil temperature. It cost about $1900 for the parts – I got it through a Gangster, but I forgot who; post a note and you’ll hear from him. The system was installed by my own mechanic during engine reinstallation following a major overhaul, so it’s not possible to give an accurate installation cost. In my opinion, it’s an outstanding piece of equipment for managing the mixture and throttle, but there are some caveats.

Based on our Cheetah experience, we put the EDM-760 with fuel flow in our Cougar, and again it's great. The fuel flow information is tremendous in terms of knowing how much is aboard (precision fueling is important in the Cougar in order to manage available payload) and in monitoring operation in flight. Twice I've been able to isolate the dead plug on run-up, thus making it a quick plug swap instead of a dead plug hunt. Now that we have the Tiger, there’s another JPI EDM-series engine analyzer in our future.

It’s important to view the information as relative rather than absolute. Installation and other variables can make the numbers you see be different from actuality. For example, our Cheetah had a Tanis preheater that uses the CHT probe wells on the cylinders, so we use the spark plug gasket thermocouples. Further, because of the way the engine compartment and baffling are laid out, we had to mount these on the bottom plugs. As a result, the temperatures read 40 to 80F higher than the cylinders’ actual temperature, and 40F higher on the rear cylinders than the front. Also, due to placement of the EGT probes, the back cylinders read 50-100F higher than the front cylinders. Thus, the information is useful from a relative standpoint (i.e., one cylinder is reading 100 higher than usual) rather than an absolute value (i.e., cylinder #3 CHT is 420F). As a result, the analyzer is great for spotting problems (via unusual readings), leaning (when peak EGT occurs rather than what the actual temperature is at peak EGT), and checking operation (identifying a bad plug during mag checks).

Tanis ran some tests of the “actual” temperatures (i.e., those measured at the tip of the thermocouple in the CHT well – the “official” values used in certification) versus those measured other ways. They found that the spark plug gaskets read up to 80F high, with the largest difference at the top of the climb. Spark plug gaskets on the lower plugs read hotter than those on the top plugs. Tanis' new "washer" type thermocouples (Tanis P/N TAS 2144K, $60 each) that fit onto the Tanis preheater probes in the CHT wells were accurate at climb, idle, and descent, and read 30F colder than the tips at "high speed cruise." A guy I know with a PA-28R-200 got those probes and is very happy with them. We have since replaced our gasket thermocouples with this type. However, if were installing both systems at once, I'd get the Tanis dual probes (Tanis P/N TAS 100-K, $165 each) that replace both the preheater probes and the other thermocouples. They read the temperature at the tip in the well, and so are totally accurate.

That said, I find the system most useful on a regular basis for leaning in cruise and, at higher density altitudes, in climbs, for checking spark plugs during run-up/mag check (EGT rise on each cylinder when single mag selected), and for monitoring CHT during descent to prevent shock-cooling. It’s also an excellent backup for the installed oil temp gauge. We installed the probe that feeds the analyzer at the inlet port to the oil cooler, thus reading the oil temp at its hottest. The installed gauge reads from a different part of the engine where the oil is a little cooler. As a result, the analyzer oil temp usually reads about 10F hotter than the installed gauge, and provides assurance that I know the max oil temp when the engine is running in the summer heat. On the other hand, in the winter, the systems provides a cross-check of the vernitherm. When the oil is too cool, flow through the cooler stops, and the oil temperature on the analyzer drops to engine compartment ambient. (Boy, was I surprised the first time I noticed an oil temp of 60F in flight! - at least until I figured out why). When the vernitherm opens again, the temperature rises to match the installed gauge. Another interesting piece of information, and an assurance that an otherwise hard-to-check but critical piece of equipment is functioning properly.

In addition, it has helped sort out an engine problem. Without any prior symptoms, our Cheetah's O-320-E2G engine with the high compression STC began running a little rough today. The #3 cylinder EGT showed about 60F higher than normal, and the #3 CHT about 30F lower than normal. The other three cylinders were all at normal indications. There was noticeable but minor roughness. At times, the RPM would go up about 50 and the #3 EGT would drop back to normal, then the RPM would drop back about 50 and the EGT would rise back up to the 60F-higher value. On ground run-up, all was normal at 1800 RPM, and I got the usual 30F rise in EGT on #3 when going to either L or R mag, with no noticeable roughness. Takeoff, climb, and cruise performance seemed pretty normal, although the roughness was apparent at full power.

On the advice of several mechanics, I did a mag check while airborne, and sure enough the engine ran pretty smooth on the left mag, but rough as a cob on the right, isolating the problem down to one plug -- the #3 right (lower) or its associated leads/section of the mag. My mechanic said, "Let's look at the easiest thing first -- pull the plug." We did, and found a blob of lead you wouldn't believe -- looked like a giant booger, complete with trailing snot deep into the plug. We then pulled the other three lower plugs and found measurable but not particularly significant leading on them. The top plugs were pretty clean. After cleaning and regapping the plugs, the engine runs fine. The point is that with the analyzer, I was able to isolate the problem straight down to the #3 cylinder right (lower) spark plug/wiring. That alone might have saved hours of trouble-shooting.

Based on our experience with the Cheetah, we put a JPI EDM-760 in our Cougar, and now have a JPI EDM-930 in our Tiger. After 15 years of flying with JPI EDM's, I wouldn't have it any other way. The only question in my mind would be which of the ever-expanding array of JPI EDM's to install.
 
I'm a big fan of engine monitors but that said, I might go without one on a O-360 unless I could get a good deal on one. I like the JPI EDM-700 the best of what's available today but EI is coming out with a really nice unit that has a vibration sensor and a high resolution color display. I saw a prototype over a year ago at SunNfun but the last time I checked they still didn't have it through the certification process ("available soon"). The price on that will probably be enough higher than the JPI to notice but it does appear to offer more and certainly would look "cool" in your panel. JPI also sells a EDM-800 which has sensors for RPM and manifold pressure (along with fuel flow which can be had with the 700) and it proports to display % max horsepower but IME that function is pretty useless. The only real advantage of the 800 is that AFaIK it will record MP and RPM along with the other measurments and I think this would be useful in any analysis of the recordings.

There are a couple downsides to JPI products. One is that while their customer service is generally pretty good, the owner is known for doing some pretty obnoxious things to his customer base. A big issue of contention over the years is that he seems to think that the data from your monitor belongs to him. He even went to the extent of encrypting it in some of the firmware versions. I think he's trying to protect the market for his PC display/analysis software.

Do you already have a fuel totalizer? This is something I'd strongly recommend whether or not you add a monitor and one very good way to get that is to install a monitor with a fuel flow capatility. One of the advantages of that route is that your fuel flow gets recorded along with the EGTs and CHTs, something that makes the analysis of the data much more useful and valuable.

FWIW, JPI's big claim to fame is their "fast response" probes.
 
I was able to isolate the problem straight down to the #3 cylinder right (lower) spark plug/wiring. That alone might have saved hours of trouble-shooting.

And that, IMHO, is the biggest reason to install one even on a small carbureted engine.

After 15 years of flying with JPI EDM's, I wouldn't have it any other way. The only question in my mind would be which of the ever-expanding array of JPI EDM's to install.

Being a gadget freak, if I had just installed a 430W in my Warrior, I would install one of the new EDM 830's. Unless, of course, I had the panel room and $$ for a 930, or I was really nostalgic for the old-school amber screen look.

http://jpinstruments.com/newproducts.html
 
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I have been flying behind an O-360 (180hp) for a little over 1000 hrs. It does not have an engine monitor, and frankly, I don't think any of the smaller engines need them. Having said that... if I was going to add one, I would get one with fuel flow like the EDM-700 series. I think JPI might also have an option for fuel totalization, which would be nice.


So first I should ask is it even worthwhile to get an engine monitor for a single engine O-320 Lycoming or they just too bullet proof to really have to worry about running it poorly?

If I do get a monitor which one, JPI or EI and why?
 
Now that I have the new GPS installed my last instrument whole is available again. It had been used to house a jack for the serial programing of the KLN90B.

I am thinking of using that whole for an engine monitor. I currently have a single channel EGT/CHT.

So first I should ask is it even worthwhile to get an engine monitor for a single engine O-320 Lycoming or they just too bullet proof to really have to worry about running it poorly?

If I do get a monitor which one, JPI or EI and why?

We generally go with the instrument that gives most information with a reasonable cost. Which ever you may choose, use the hole in your panel, not the "whole", it saves more space...
 
MVP50, and replace everything. :D

My JPI700 needs some reprogramming. Full tanks, and as soon as I reach TOC, I only have 45 minutes of fuel remaining...because it thinks I am burning 60gph.
 
Don't loose you're mind on that.
 
FINALLY SOMEONE CAUGHT THAT!!! At least I spelled it right and that should count, right!! :D:D

For you, yes it should definately be counted.
BTW, For highly capable engine monitoring instruments it is often necessary to utilize the whole hole.
 
As Cap'n Ron's story pointed out, the engine monitor can pay for itself many times over if you'll use it to diagnose engine problems. Mine has pinpointed issues and saved much diagnostics expense on four occasions that I can recall.

As far as which one to buy...

JPI probably has the best machine but if you buy one you'll need to pray that you never have an issue . Their customer service is lacking at best.

EI's machine isn't far behind and, unlike JPI, they are dedicated to customer service and support.

I have friends that have JPIs and can tell you horror stories. I have an EI and they replaced a display under warranty when it "started leaking". The monitor was three years out of warranty and they still covered it.
 
I'll echo Ron's analysis. I've had the JPI EDM 700 with fuel flow, oil temp and full EGT/CHT probes since I've had the Tiger from 2001. Yeah, the Tiger has the uber reliable Lyc O-360, but I like having all the info I can get and being able to see trends and problems beforehand can be a life saver. Also, the Tigers if not baffled properly can run a bit hot so its nice to keep an eye on my CHT's in summer on climb out. The fuel flow has been calibrated and is right on. Its fun to check after flights, and that info is really nice to have as well.
 
If you really have to have a monitor I would probably deal with the Devil and buy the EDM 700 or 800 unit, they are the most popular units. I have a number of customers that have come in with dead cylinders and had no problems displayed on the monitor. I could tell you horrible stories about JPI customer service and the fortress that the president has built to avoid the installer and user. (just try to complain, I dare you) Customer service is where E.I. and Insight stand out.

The death of the system and the most troubles come from very poor installations, common sense goes overboard. From my view I like the system for troubleshooting and selling probes.

I have a Gem 610 system in the Malibu, it was used and cheap. No problems for 5 years. See, i'm not complaining!

Kevin
 
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