Engine Failure - Vg - Flaps

Keystoner

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I have engine failure and I'm immediately pitching and trimming for Vg. I'll use flaps "if necessary to descend." Flaps will steepen my descent and increase my airspeed. So once I use flaps, I'm no longer trying to maintain Vg. That would defeat using flaps. Correct?
 
A couple things, you ONLY want to use flaps once you’re sure the intended landing zone is made. You don’t use flaps ‘if necessary to descend’, there’s other preferable methods for doing that. Also, flaps will not increase your airspeed. Flaps will allow you to descend at a steeper angle/rate without increasing airspeed.

Highly suggest studying up emergency procedures and the aerodynamic effects of flaps.
 
Take engine failure out of the scenario. I'm struggling with the concept even for landing. My CFI says it's windy, so we'll only put in 10 degrees of flaps and come in faster than usual. I'm pitching for airspeed, so no matter what my flaps are, I can slow the plane down to my usual landing speed, right?
 
A couple things, you ONLY want to use flaps once you’re sure the intended landing zone is made. You don’t use flaps ‘if necessary to descend’, there’s other preferable methods for doing that.
I wrote that from the 'Engine failure on takeoff, after rotation, with runway remaining' checklist that my school uses.
 
I wrote that from the 'Engine failure on takeoff, after rotation, with runway remaining' checklist that my school uses.
With that context, than yes, what you wrote above would be correct because you would have the intended landing point made - flaps can be used in that case.
 
Take engine failure out of the scenario. I'm struggling with the concept even for landing. My CFI says it's windy, so we'll only put in 10 degrees of flaps and come in faster than usual. I'm pitching for airspeed, so no matter what my flaps are, I can slow the plane down to my usual landing speed, right?

Depends... in a Cirrus, you land full flaps regardless of crosswind. You only increase speed for the gust factor, which kicks in above 10 knots difference. So a twelve knot gust, you add 6 knots, still full flaps. It really depends on the airplane. With the gust factor, you keep it in until the flare, you have keep in mind the extra landing distance.

Edit: "Windy" is not a reason to increase landing speed. These terms are important when you are learning. Gusty is a reason, generally it's a good idea to see what the POH says on this stuff.
 
My understanding: flaps increase lift and decrease stall speed allowing you to go slower, which is desirable for landing, and still have enough lift to stay in the air.

ETA: and they add drag, which helps slow down the plane.

If I can fully control my airspeed with pitch, why am I adding flaps?
 
It depends....every answer about airplanes should begin with "it depends..." Of course, at 100 ft you don't have the options you will at 1000 feet.

Initially, pitch for VG: yes. Maintain flying speed, minimize sink rate and altitude loss, preserve options. Never trade away altitude without a reason.

But as you gather your wits and assess the situation, then manipulate flight controls (slip, turns, airspeed) or adjust flight controls (flaps) to make your target field.

After that, it's just like in any other no-engine landing on a runway. Most likely using whatever soft/short field combination technique you have the energy left to perform: light touchdown, nosewheel off the ground, slow speed is my choice...but I bet I won't get my 'druthers in the situation.

It all depends.
 
My understanding: flaps increase lift and decrease stall speed allowing you to go slower, which is desirable for landing, and still have enough lift to stay in the air.

ETA: and they add drag, which helps slow down the plane.

If I can fully control my airspeed with pitch, why am I adding flaps?
Flaps add drag, continuously, which in turn keeps you from getting too fast while descending. You can land without flaps, but you will land faster and use more runway, your glide path will be shallower unless you use other tricks, like slipping.
 
You wouldn't happen to have any sailing experience, would you?

We cruised a sailboat in the Caribbean for a few years. It was great training for becoming used to the fluidity of constantly adjusting the sail (wing) against the wind and current while making one's way toward the destination. I was a pilot before I was a sailor, but sailing made me a much better pilot. Especially small boat sailing.
 
You can land without flaps, but you will land faster...
Why? Can't I pitch up and reduce power and land at the exact same airspeed as I would have with full flaps?
 
You wouldn't happen to have any sailing experience, would you?
No but I'm a total knot nerd. I can't walk down a dock and not feel completely compelled to fix all the cleat hitches.
 
Why? Can't I pitch up and reduce power and land at the exact same airspeed as I would have with full flaps?

Flaps lower stall speed, which in turn results in a lower ground speed when you touch down. This is important stuff, without flaps your approach speed needs to be faster than it would with full flaps.

The stall speed part is real important to understand though, you should have this down by now if you are practicing landings. Suggest you crack the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, and read chapter 9.

Chapter 4 is another good chapter, "Energy management", which is what you are playing with in your different scenarios.

Then chapter 5, the slow flight and stalls part, you really need to drive home the effect of flaps on stall speed. We practice stalls to recognize what goes on when we get near stall speed.
 
Got it. Yes, I can fly slower, but it would be flirting dangerously with the stall speed. If I don't have all the flaps in, I need to intentionally fly faster. I know the FAA recommends 1.3xVs on final, so staying 30% over Vs gives me the safety buffer. Thanks.
 
Also, flaps will not increase your airspeed. Flaps will allow you to descend at a steeper angle/rate without increasing airspeed.
It's bad that I wrote that. I got it. Yes, in fact, it will decrease. Flaps decrease the trimmed airspeed.
 
Take engine failure out of the scenario. I'm struggling with the concept even for landing. My CFI says it's windy, so we'll only put in 10 degrees of flaps and come in faster than usual. I'm pitching for airspeed, so no matter what my flaps are, I can slow the plane down to my usual landing speed, right?

Too many CFIs do a poor job of explaining the “why” of what they ask a student to do. As a student don’t ever be too timid to ask why are we doing this like this during the post flight brief.
 
Too many CFIs do a poor job of explaining the “why” of what they ask a student to do. As a student don’t ever be too timid to ask why are we doing this like this during the post flight brief.
And too many CFIs teach things because that’s what they were taught without adequate explanation.
 
I can relate to your frustration, I'm an over-thinker myself, but I think you're being too hard on these instructors.

Their job is to: Keep you from killing yourself, teach you to fly, and teach you enough theory to pass the FAA test. That's it. If you need the science behind everything, more than what's in the FAA handbooks, you're going to need to accept that this is your thing, and learn it yourself. I'm not saying this to bust your chops, just to point out that a CFI's primary job isn't science teacher.

Flaps change the shape of the wing. They always increase drag, and in some cases they increase lift. So they can be used to help you reduce energy, to steepen an approach, and sometimes make a take-off shorter.

Before you add flaps, you need to make sure you're not above the max speed for deploying flaps, or you're liable to break something. Before you remove flaps, you need to make sure you have enough airspeed and potentially an appropriate angle of attack so you don't inadvertently stall the airplane.

On an engine failure, the number one thing, above anything else, is to make sure you don't stall the airplane. So the first thing you do is get the nose down, because whatever angle of attack you had under power, it's almost certainly not low enough for zero power. So engine out, nose down. Then, you want to get that speed to be best glide. Best glide is always a 'clean' speed. No flaps, gear up. Drag takes away energy, and with no engine your only energy source is your altitude. Best glide speed will get you the farthest distance with the altitude you have. So keep flying, get to V glide, fly to a place to land.

Once you are over the place you're going to land, or in the traffic pattern, you can think about adding drag to the airplane. This is where some personal preferences can come in to play. If I'm over an airport, I plan on landing about 1/3 of the way down the field, even if it's a short field. I believe that's FAA recommendations, and I like it because it gives me a margin for error in not being short. I would much rather be too high, and risk going too long, than going short. The next thing I do is err on the side of being too high, at each step. So if I'm doing a circle to land, and I'm coming out way above normal pattern, but I'm not 100% positive I can't easily make another turn, I'm not doing it. Along those lines, I don't add any flaps on a simulated power out until I'm on final. That may not be the best way to do it, but I'm more comfortable with my ability to lose altitude than add energy to an aircraft without an operating engine.

One final thought on an already long post. If you're high on final, other than adding flaps or slipping, slowing down will increase your descent rate. Obviously don't stall or even increase AOA to a point where you could get too slow too quickly, but as you're already below best glide, slower is steeper. In calm weather, being at about 1.1 V stall on a straight in final isn't necessarily bad. Likewise, if you're a little too low, you can get back up to V glide to lengthen your glide. I don't find myself in that spot on simulated, because I get out of best glide while I'm still high. If it's simulated, you're at best glide already, and you know you're not going to make the field, add power, go-around, and try again. No point in starting the go-around low if you don't have to.
 
Their job is to: Keep you from killing yourself, teach you to fly, and teach you enough theory to pass the FAA test. That's it. If you need the science behind everything, more than what's in the FAA handbooks, you're going to need to accept that this is your thing, and learn it yourself. I'm not saying this to bust your chops, just to point out that a CFI's primary job isn't science teacher.
No problem. That's why I'm here.
 
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