Engenfellner RV7

[JohnWF]

A friend's wife mentioned her husband's Eng RV7A had to be taken care of because of something - she couldn't recall what it was - was breaking up "into pieces" as she put it....he's away so I can't get details...have you heard of any such safety bulletins or events that might support her report?

 

[Geico266]

The gear box.

Engenfelner stopped supporting the firewall forward package he sold as he could not build a reduction gear box that would last. He was up to revision #3 when he threw a temper tantrum and stopped supporting anything he sold.

Your friends RV7 is now worth about $35k instead of $80k. He will need a new engine, wiring, and a new panel.

He is now sell the Viking Engine FF package to suckers in the home built LSA market.

 

[Henning]

The gear box.

Engenfelner stopped supporting the firewall forward package he sold as he could not build a reduction gear box that would last. He was up to revision #3 when he threw a temper tantrum and stopped supporting anything he sold.

Your friends RV7 is now worth about $35k instead of $80k. He will need a new engine, wiring, and a new panel.

He is not sell the Viking Engine FF package to suckers in the home built LSA market.

Wow! I just spent a couple hours reading up on this dude.

If anyone is interested, start here and follow links around including the ones that go to Viking stuff... http://www.meyette.us/engine.htm

I see he's banned from the VAF forums.

 

[N801BH]

The gear box.

Engenfelner stopped supporting the firewall forward package he sold as he could not build a reduction gear box that would last. He was up to revision #3 when he threw a temper tantrum and stopped supporting anything he sold.

Your friends RV7 is now worth about $35k instead of $80k. He will need a new engine, wiring, and a new panel.

He is not sell the Viking Engine FF package to suckers in the home built LSA market.

Jan is a full time snake oil salesman..

 

[Geico266]

Wow! I just spent a couple hours reading up on this dude.

If anyone is interested, start here and follow links around including the ones that go to Viking stuff... http://www.meyette.us/engine.htm

I see he's banned from the VAF forums.

Jan is a full time snake oil salesman..

I call em like I see em.

Rumor has it he is banned from SnF, and there is a growing number trying to ban him from OSH. I was told he was charged with assault at SnF after one of his "customers" demanded his deposit back. They got into a fight.

He left many people hanging after they paid deposits and never recieived an engine before he went belly up and started a new company.

Needless to say I,m not a fan.

 

[Geico266]

The input shafts of the gear boxes have been shearing due to tortional flexing issues.

There are several dozen flying, but with no support they are left to fend for their own. Resale is abismal.

It never ceases to amaze me that perfectly rational and talented homebuilder would choose an unproven powerplant in which they were the beta testers.

 

[N801BH]

I call em like I see em.

Rumor has it he is banned from SnF, and there is a growing number trying to ban him from OSH. I was told he was charged with assault at SnF after one of his "customers" demanded his deposit back. They got into a fight.

He left many people hanging after they paid deposits and never recieived an engine before he went belly up and started a new company.

Needless to say I,m not a fan.

I am on your side ol buddy.....

A local airline pilot built a -7A a few years back and got conned into putting in a Egg Subie by Jan .... Thing ALWAYS ran hot, never had enough power, motor quit once and he had to build a new rudder from a off field landing, been through a couple of gear boxes... The thing was sold as a "complete, engineered package" ... It was anything but that........

I stood around the Egg display at OSH a few years back for awhile and just listened to him BS the masses... In that maybe 45 minutes, I bet 5 guys approached Jan and demanded their money back.. It got kinda heated..

 

[Geico266]

I am on your side ol buddy.....

A local airline pilot built a -7A a few years back and got conned into putting in a Egg Subie by Jan .... Thing ALWAYS ran hot, never had enough power, motor quit once and he had to build a new rudder from a off field landing, been through a couple of gear boxes... The thing was sold as a "complete, engineered package" ... It was anything but that........

I stood around the Egg display at OSH a few years back for awhile and just listened to him BS the masses... In that maybe 45 minutes, I bet 5 guys approached Jan and demanded their money back.. It got kinda heated..

The problems with the gear boxes have been know for 15 years, yet up until 3 years ago he was taking new orders.

The funny part is the people ordering there engines thought they were saving $10k over a new Lycoming $10k. The problem is they were buying a used Subaru engine with up to 30,000 miles on it. You have zero maintenance history.

What they bought ended up costing them $40k easy.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

 

[weirdjim]

A fool and his money are soon parted.

A fool and his money are soon partying.

Jim

 

[N801BH]

......It never ceases to amaze me that perfectly rational and talented homebuilder would choose an unproven powerplant in which they were the beta testers.

Which is exactly way I am still in the R&D mode with my powerplant.. No one gets to be my beta testing guinnie pig.....

When I feel it is safe and ready for market, only then does it get sold to the dozens of people waiting for it,,, and not a minute sooner...

 

[Jim Logajan]

He is now sell the Viking Engine FF package to suckers in the home built LSA market.

There is a customer-started Yahoo forum about the Viking here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Viking_Aircraft_Engine/conversations/messages

As best I can tell, while there are a lot of posts deriding Jan's personality and his past failures, it appears his Viking engine does work and a bunch have been shipped and flying. The longest running engine probably has a couple years on it and several hundred hours.

I don't see Jan as a snake oil salesman so much as a young man who over-reached and failed. A snake oil salesman fakes the oil and doesn't believe his own nonsense - he just wants to make money. No snake oil type would choose aircraft engines made from auto conversions as their market of choice. At least no sane one.

The problem that seems to have hurt him the most is that he was selling a very expensive mission-critical device. It is one thing to lose a few dollars or even a few hundred, but people get royally ****ed over losing tens of thousands of dollars. Particularly when the people losing the money were trying to save money.

 

[poadeleted21]

I noticed that one exp maker was pushing the Suzuku Hayabusa engine... Anybody else running those in experimental land?

 

[Geico266]

The problem that seems to have hurt him the most is that he was selling a very expensive mission-critical device. It is one thing to lose a few dollars or even a few hundred, but people get royally ****ed over losing tens of thousands of dollars. Particularly when the people losing the money were trying to save money.

We can agree on that.


The problem is buyers are comparing a new Rotax engine to a used retrofitted engine out of a wrecked Honda Fit with around 30,000 miles or about 800 hours on it. It is not a fair comparison. I can buy a used Rotax with 800 hours on it for much less than a Viking Engine, and it will last 10 times longer.

 

[Henning]

I noticed that one exp maker was pushing the Suzuku Hayabusa engine... Anybody else running those in experimental land?

IIRC the Bugatti 100p repro is using two of them.

http://bugatti100p.com/

 

[FORANE]

I noticed that one exp maker was pushing the Suzuku Hayabusa engine... Anybody else running those in experimental land?

Some are putting them in smart cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgwzHJo3IXM

 

[Ted]

Hmm. I remember a few years ago, Nick was going off saying that the Engenfelner was the most reliable engine out there, and much more reliable than a Lycoming since he couldn't find any accident reports on one failing. I explained why it was a completely invalid statistic, and he went on and on about how reliable it was in spite of any evidence.

Guess I was right.

 

[kyleb]

We can agree on that.


The problem is buyers are comparing a new Rotax engine to a used retrofitted engine out of a wrecked Honda Fit with around 30,000 miles or about 800 hours on it. It is not a fair comparison. I can buy a used Rotax with 800 hours on it for much less than a Viking Engine, and it will last 10 times longer.

The two issues in play are Jan's history (bad), and the apparent track record of the Viking (good, so far). 800 hours on an engine used in an auto is nothing. They last 10,000+ hours in that application.

 

[Henning]

The two issues in play are Jan's history (bad), and the apparent track record of the Viking (good, so far). 800 hours on an engine used in an auto is nothing. They last 10,000+ hours in that application.

They run at 20% power in that application. The engine engineers I talk to about duty cycles and such put it pretty basically, "This engine is good for x gallons of fuel through it. You can put them through in 1000 hrs or you can put them through in 20,000 hrs, however you please."

 

[Bill Watson]

As best I can tell, while there are a lot of posts deriding Jan's personality and his past failures, it appears his Viking engine does work and a bunch have been shipped and flying. The longest running engine probably has a couple years on it and several hundred hours.

I don't see Jan as a snake oil salesman so much as a young man who over-reached and failed. A snake oil salesman fakes the oil and doesn't believe his own nonsense - he just wants to make money. No snake oil type would choose aircraft engines made from auto conversions as their market of choice. At least no sane one.

...and that's the story line and logic trap that allows Jan to somehow march on.

He is a mechanically talented hustler who has hooked into one of the most compelling sales pitches in light aviation, i.e. there are millions of highly reliable modern engines running in millions of automobiles. Clearly, one can save $$$ and gain performance by replacing the technically retarded Lycosaur with one of these mass produced wonders.

Yep, no doubt.

The only negative experience I had with building my '10 was meeting Dan Lloyd, his wife and kids at Oshkosh along with Jan and the butchered up Subaru powered prototype that he was using to hopefully drive sales of his next batch of engines. Dan seemed like a good guy, his family was great and Jan was clearly in hustle mode. Little did I know that Dan would soon be gone having spared the rest of his family by wrecking sooner rather than later. Dan was ultimately responsible but he had been exploited by Jan the hustler, no doubt in my mind.

I was not a target so I didn't get the pitch but I spent the show with some guys who had earlier bought into Jan and his pitch. Listening to them, it was easy to see how Jan could thrive in his niche.

I've always been fascinated by personalities like Jan. The lines between good and bad, honest and deceptive, talented and disturbed are not black and white.

Thanks to whoever posted the links.

 

[kyleb]

They run at 20% power in that application.

Right. Which is why 800 hours in an auto application basically doesn't matter if you switch the engine to an aviation application. You're probably starting with the wear you'd get in 100 hours in an aviation application.

 

[Henning]

I don't know anyone who has saved a dime using an auto engine, not that I have a problem with them. It's like building an airplane, you don't do it to save money, because you won't, not and have a good outcome, you build it to have what you want. I'm positive Ben could have bought a TIO-540-J2BD for his plane for less money than he has in his Ford. Building an auto engine to work at those power settings reliably is not cheap, you are basically building a full out racing engine.

 

[Jim Logajan]

They run at 20% power in that application. The engine engineers I talk to about duty cycles and such put it pretty basically, "This engine is good for x gallons of fuel through it. You can put them through in 1000 hrs or you can put them through in 20,000 hrs, however you please."

Honda uses the Fit engine block in one of their marine engine products:

http://marine.honda.com/outboards/motor-detail/BF90EFI

They also sell it as a racing engine:

http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=5383-en

I believe there are two other outfits that possibly followed Jan's lead and also chose to offer conversions of the Honda Fit engine to aircraft use.

 

[kyleb]

I don't know anyone who has saved a dime using an auto engine, not that I have a problem with them. It's like building an airplane, you don't do it to save money, because you won't, not and have a good outcome, you build it to have what you want. I'm positive Ben could have bought a TIO-540-J2BD for his plane for less money than he has in his Ford. Building an auto engine to work at those power settings reliably is not cheap, you are basically building a full out racing engine.

I'm dubious of auto conversions as well. But this one seems to be working reasonably well so far. "So far" is probably a few hundred hours with the highest time users. Time will tell.

The roll-out customer for this engine in an RV-12 is a local guy. He's gotten a huge amount of factory support (because his is the engine and airframe they try everything new on). He he seems pretty happy with the set-up.

 

[dell30rb]

Is this one of them Jan motors?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[N801BH]

I don't know anyone who has saved a dime using an auto engine, not that I have a problem with them. It's like building an airplane, you don't do it to save money, because you won't, not and have a good outcome, you build it to have what you want. I'm positive Ben could have bought a TIO-540-J2BD for his plane for less money than he has in his Ford. Building an auto engine to work at those power settings reliably is not cheap, you are basically building a full out racing engine.

Henning has flown my plane and can attest to its ability to actually get airborne......

Honestly.. I enjoy the challange of making the auto engine work in a plane.... It was /is ALOT of work and I bet I have 2000 hours alone in the 1st three feet of my plane... At a nominal shop rate of 50 bucks an hour the labor would work out to 100 grand.. But who is counting.. Prototype stuff is like that and I thrive on the journey... The motor / redrive itself is pretty cost effective... Probably in the range of 14,000-15,000 area.. Not bad for 400 horsepower.......

If and when it hits the end user market I will price the package in the mid 20 grand range. That will make it about 1/3 the cost of a certified 300 HP motor.. Altho it only has 500 hours and about 100,000 miles under its belt I am getting very confident in its viability and safety... It could run another 4000 hours or kill me in the next 40 seconds.... This test pilot stuff is real fun, the gray hairs are an extra bonus..

 

[airguy]

Which is exactly way I am still in the R&D mode with my powerplant.. No one gets to be my beta testing guinnie pig.....

When I feel it is safe and ready for market, only then does it get sold to the dozens of people waiting for it,,, and not a minute sooner...

Ben - what are you working on? Or is that a closely guarded secret and you're only teasing the huddled unwashed masses?

 

[airguy]

I noticed that one exp maker was pushing the Suzuku Hayabusa engine... Anybody else running those in experimental land?

First time I heard of it was earlier this week - it's certainly not widespread.

 

[SkyHog]

Hmm. I remember a few years ago, Nick was going off saying that the Engenfelner was the most reliable engine out there, and much more reliable than a Lycoming since he couldn't find any accident reports on one failing. I explained why it was a completely invalid statistic, and he went on and on about how reliable it was in spite of any evidence.

Guess I was right.

Before I even read your post, I remembered this. The point was sound - Lycomings and Continentals are the most over-priced, under powered, overweight, and feature lacking engines in the market today (that is the entire market, not just airplane engines).

I had no idea that Jan was going to be such a flake and a waste of human life.

That said, if one of the real engine manufacturers (like Ford, Toyota or Honda) would get on board with piston airplane engines, airplanes would become more efficient and less expensive overnight, and we'd finally have done decent features that weren't developed in 1941.

 

[Henning]

Before I even read your post, I remembered this. The point was sound - Lycomings and Continentals are the most over-priced, under powered, overweight, and feature lacking engines in the market today (that is the entire market, not just airplane engines).

I had no idea that Jan was going to be such a flake and a waste of human life.

That said, if one of the real engine manufacturers (like Ford, Toyota or Honda) would get on board with piston airplane engines, airplanes would become more efficient and less expensive overnight, and we'd finally have done decent features that weren't developed in 1941.

As I said back then, Toyota spent millions trying, and gave up. However in the mean time Continental has developed EFI& Electronic ignition equipped engines spanning their line, certified the 4cyl Diesel and are working on a 6.

 

[Ted]

Before I even read your post, I remembered this. The point was sound - Lycomings and Continentals are the most over-priced, under powered, overweight, and feature lacking engines in the market today (that is the entire market, not just airplane engines).

I had no idea that Jan was going to be such a flake and a waste of human life.

That said, if one of the real engine manufacturers (like Ford, Toyota or Honda) would get on board with piston airplane engines, airplanes would become more efficient and less expensive overnight, and we'd finally have done decent features that weren't developed in 1941.

Nope, your point was on reliability, and you used invalid statistics to try to prove a point that was wrong. Your statement was that it was the only statistic that existed, so it was valid.

Henning's stated what happened when Toyota tried. Ben's auto conversion is the most successful I've seen.

But keep on trying.

 

[poadeleted21]

Nope, your point was on reliability, and you used invalid statistics to try to prove a point that was wrong. Your statement was that it was the only statistic that existed, so it was valid.

Henning's stated what happened when Toyota tried. Ben's auto conversion is the most successful I've seen.

But keep on trying.

IIRC Porsche tried too...

 

[Geico266]

Before I even read your post, I remembered this. The point was sound - Lycomings and Continentals are the most over-priced, under powered, overweight, and feature lacking engines in the market today (that is the entire market, not just airplane engines).

I had no idea that Jan was going to be such a flake and a waste of human life.

That said, if one of the real engine manufacturers (like Ford, Toyota or Honda) would get on board with piston airplane engines, airplanes would become more efficient and less expensive overnight, and we'd finally have done decent features that weren't developed in 1941.

Ford invents a motor for a new car and sells 1-5 millions copies.
Ford invents a motor that is certified for aircraft and sells 1500.

Take the average cost R&D say $5 million? Plus $4million for certification, and divide it by the number of engines sold. You will quickly understand why no one else invents a new aircraft engine, they improve the ones they got. That is just development cost, and does not include production or manufacturing costs, profit, or liability insurance.

As far as reliability goes the Engenfellner Subaru engine has killed several people I knew. About the only thing reliable about these engine set ups is that they are needing to be replaced and they are unreliable.

You say you didn't know Jan was going to be "unreliable", yet you supported his efforts by assuming he could invent a better engine. You drank the coolaid and believed beyond reason it would just work out. Everyone who bought the engine package did too. Some lost their lives, some destroyed their planes, all lost value in their planes with an inferior engine package, and now no repair parts or support.

Trust me, I am in the experimental camp with both feet, I commend guys like Ben who are out there experimenting! But for reliability, and resale there really is only one choice.... For now.

 

[Bill Watson]

Ford invents a motor for a new car and sells 1-5 millions copies.
Ford invents a motor that is certified for aircraft and sells 1500.

Take the average cost R&D say $5 million? Plus $4million for certification, and divide it by the number of engines sold. You will quickly understand why no one else invents a new aircraft engine, they improve the ones they got. That is just development cost, and does not include production or manufacturing costs, profit, or liability insurance.

As far as reliability goes the Engenfellner Subaru engine has killed several people I knew. About the only thing reliable about these engine set ups is that they are needing to be replaced and they are unreliable.

You say you didn't know Jan was going to be "unreliable", yet you supported his efforts by assuming he could invent a better engine. You drank the coolaid and believed beyond reason it would just work out. Everyone who bought the engine package did too. Some lost their lives, some destroyed their planes, all lost value in their planes with an inferior engine package, and now no repair parts or support.

Trust me, I am in the experimental camp with both feet, I commend guys like Ben who are out there experimenting! But for reliability, and resale there really is only one choice.... For now.

Yes, exactly, point by point.

And it seems that history is repeating itself with the Viking effort. Independent of the all else, there is a personality at the top that has established a consistent track record of.... not being the right guy for this type of business. But Jan and his business is still appealing to many. Amazing, go figure

 

[Ted]

IIRC Porsche tried too...

Also true. It was slower and burned more fuel than the Lycoming.

 

[Skylane81E]

Also true. It was slower and burned more fuel than the Lycoming.

The reason lycoming and TCM engines are so lacking in power density is rather simple...


The prop it typically bolted right to the end of the crankshaft. Bolt on a 2-1 redrive and spin the thing to 5500rpm and see how much power you could make with only fairly minor work for to tune in the higher RPM.

We could also go to overhead cams and more valves too, but then we have chains to break/stretch and more valves to stick.

The most common auto engine to be used in aircraft is an air cooled opposed 4 cylinder pushrod engine. Wonder why it is so readily adapted?

 

[Ted]

What the LyContisaur engines really need is a better cylinder design for more efficiency. But it won't happen because neither of them will approach the FAA with a proposal for how to certify it, even though it's pretty simple.

 

[Henning]

What the LyContisaur engines really need is a better cylinder design for more efficiency. But it won't happen because neither of them will approach the FAA with a proposal for how to certify it, even though it's pretty simple.

How would one make the cylinder more efficient?

 

[Ted]

How would one make the cylinder more efficient?

A better combustion chamber design.

 

[Henning]

A better combustion chamber design.

What would you do to modify the hemi?

 

[Ted]

What would you do to modify the hemi?

I'd incorporate a more modern design focused on efficient lean combustion. As to which one, lots of options to choose from that are better. I'm somewhat partial to the high-squish "May" head from my Jaguar V12 days, but there are other good ones. I wouldn't reinvent the wheel on this and instead use an off-the-shelf design.