eights and chandelles

Cap'n Jack

Cap'n Jack

Final Approach
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Cap'n Jack
Went up with a CFI and tried lazy eights, turns on pylons, and chandelles. My radio work sucked (kept dropping stuff from the tower in my mind). I don't know what was with that. I think I'll listen to www.liveatc.net to get my brain back into the groove.

The track looks more like cooked sphagetti noodles dropped at random...

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I noted the right rudder needed in the left climb on a Piper, and noted that Philips seems to have increased the toluene concentration in their av-gas.
 

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Garmin Mapsource. The GPS is an old Garmin GPS V, but Mapsource picks up any GPX file so you can use a phone as a GPS data source.. There's a newer program from Garmin called BaseCamp. It also picks up GPX files and looks like it will let me geotag photos too. Both are free downloads from Garmin. Both programs will give an altitude profile too. I think BaseCamp has a Mac version too.
 
Ground track is meaningless for Lazy 8's and Chandelles -- they are not ground reference maneuvers, so don't worry about what the plot looks like.

The need for right rudder in a left Chandelle is not unique to Pipers, but is a pretty much necessary characteristic of the maneuver unless you're flying a Yak or Wilga where the engine turns the other way -- then you need left rudder for right Chandelles.
 
Hi Ron- I was told the same thing before the flight about them not being ground reference menuvers. It's just that it's hard to see where the pylon turns are located too and there are "pivot points" on the ground for those.

This flight was in response to my question about right rudder on left turns in a C150 a few weeks back.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Hi Ron- I was told the same thing before the flight about them not being ground reference menuvers. It's just that it's hard to see where the pylon turns are located too and there are "pivot points" on the ground for those.
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I said that about Lazy-8's and Chandelles, not 8's on Pylons, which are indeed ground reference maneuvers. However, your track on the ground is still not an issue with 8's on Pylons, just your position with angular reference to the pylons on the ground. In that regard, maybe 8's on Pylons are semi-ground reference maneuvers.
 
Yep- it was just fun flying the plane differently that I have in the past.
 
What is it that Cloud Ayoy won't allow me to view the track on iPad???senseless
 
I'll third the non-ipad viewing as dumb. But the idea of the program and the different views makes it worth while (at least for training recap).
 
Jaybird180 said:
What is it that Cloud Ayoy won't allow me to view the track on iPad???senseless
Click to expand...

I-anything doesn't work with the google earth plugin / xml data to google earth. Or something. I called the programmer one time when he emailed me but not sure if I mentioned this. I think he already knows it is lame.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Went up with a CFI and tried lazy eights, turns on pylons, and chandelles. My radio work sucked (kept dropping stuff from the tower in my mind). I don't know what was with that. I think I'll listen to www.liveatc.net to get my brain back into the groove.

The track looks more like cooked sphagetti noodles dropped at random...

attachment.php





I noted the right rudder needed in the left climb on a Piper, and noted that Philips seems to have increased the toluene concentration in their av-gas.
Click to expand...


This looks like my traffic pattern attempt and re-attempt on Saturday. Cool post.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I noted the right rudder needed in the left climb on a Piper, and noted that Philips seems to have increased the toluene concentration in their av-gas.
Click to expand...

You always need right 'top' rudder in a climbing left turn to compensate for the propeller effects; unless you're flying something where the engine rotates the other way, then it's opposite as well, left rudder in a climbing right. Also your speed is staying awfully consistent on the Lazy 8s, how much altitude change are you seeing?
 
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Henning said:
You always need right 'top' rudder in a climbing left turn to compensate for the propeller effects; unless you're flying something where the engine rotates the other way, then it's opposite as well, left rudder in a climbing right. Also your speed is staying awfully consistent on the Lazy 8s, how much altitude change are you seeing?
Click to expand...
Given the fact that you're looking at ground speed and not airspeed and the winds aloft were at play -- I'm not sure I'd pay much attention to that.

He was within 5 to 10 knots of stall speed at the 90 degree point of each loop as per the airplane flying handbook. The amount of altitude change that'll produce is entirely dependent on how much energy (pretty much comes down to power setting) you went into the maneuver with.
 
jesse said:
Given the fact that you're looking at ground speed and not airspeed and the winds aloft were at play -- I'm not sure I'd pay much attention to that.

He was within 5 to 10 knots of stall speed at the 90 degree point of each loop as per the airplane flying handbook. The amount of altitude change that'll produce is entirely dependent on how much energy (pretty much comes down to power setting) you went into the maneuver with.
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There is also the rate at which you exchange energy, ie the aggressiveness of the maneuver. Time eats energy as does everything else, the less time you take in the maneuver the more altitude you will end up at for the same energy entry until you start pulling enough Gs (will typically be >3) where the drag loss of energy exchange exceeds the time loss.

Granted, it's called 'lazy' for a reason since it's not a 'yank and bank' maneuver but rather an energy conservation maneuver. The altitude you reach at the top of the turns for any entry energy level tells you how efficiently you performed the maneuver.
 
Henning said:
You always need right 'top' rudder in a climbing left turn to compensate for the propeller effects; unless you're flying something where the engine rotates the other way, then it's opposite as well, left rudder in a climbing right.
Click to expand...
And that was part of why I was playing around. I noticed it on Cessnas and I wanted to see how much different the Piper is.

Henning said:
Also your speed is staying awfully consistent on the Lazy 8s, how much altitude change are you seeing?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure which parts of the track you're calling lazy eights. The stall light was flickering as we turned around during those menuver.

What was also interesting was how the plane just "wanted" to fall back around in a coordinated fashion to complete the turn for the chandelles and lazy-8s.

It was very different from other flying I've done for any length of time because the plane is always changing state- airspeed, bank angle, and direction at the same time, and the rates of change were also changing.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
And that was part of why I was playing around. I noticed it on Cessnas and I wanted to see how much different the Piper is.

I'm not sure which parts of the track you're calling lazy eights. The stall light was flickering as we turned around during those menuver.

What was also interesting was how the plane just "wanted" to fall back around in a coordinated fashion to complete the turn for the chandelles and lazy-8s.
Click to expand...

The difference you won't note much between types, where the difference becomes significant is between power ratings and is one of the reasons for a "High Performance" endorsement so the issue doesn't catch you by surprise.

As for the plane 'wanting' to fall back in a nice coordinated exit... It gets even better than that with enough practice in the same plane. If you have everything perfect, the plane will 'want to' do the entire Lazy 8 turn by itself after the initial yoke/stick input by just using the rudder to maintain coordination. You both demonstrate positive aircraft stability around 3 axis and a Lazy 8 at the same time.:yesnod:
 
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