DPE Bad Experience

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Joseph Patrick Palmer, Jul 19, 2019.

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Have you ever had a bad and/or unfair experience with a DPE?

Poll closed Jul 24, 2019.
  1. No

    63 vote(s)
    91.3%
  2. Yes, but not as bad as this guy.

    4 vote(s)
    5.8%
  3. Yes, as bad or worse than this guy!

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
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  1. Joseph Patrick Palmer

    Joseph Patrick Palmer Ejection Handle Pulled

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    TD
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  2. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Sooooo, when you x out someone's name, make sure you get all the occurrences.
     
  3. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Ron Haider?
     
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  4. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I wouldn't have even bothered to X them out.
     
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  5. rk911

    rk911 Line Up and Wait

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    i’d love to see the FAA’s response.
     
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  6. Van Johnston

    Van Johnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Heck of a first post. Sorry you went thru that.

    You should have consulted with 6PC on how to best communicate with the NT FSDO.

    So, did you pass your checkride? Edit: Salty pointed out you said you did. I read too fast. Congratulations!
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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  7. mkosmo

    mkosmo Pattern Altitude

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    I busted my first ride for executing a go-around on the short field (in to an actual kinda short field) for safety of flight -- The DPE bumped the yoke and we we were heading towards a tree. He said the ride was unsat, but we continued. Due to nerves and broken confidence, the rest of the ride went pretty poorly. On the bright side, I at least made it to the flight.

    I opted to retest with him anyways the next week after the required retraining and I passed.
     
  8. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Now the waiting game, will FSDO reply.??
     
  9. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    The FSDO will send a letter to Richard Cranium. You know him... he complains about people without overtly mentioning their names, since the average reader can't figure out the cXXX. <- that means code
     
  10. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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    I don’t have the FAR in front of me. But I know I had to have that all for my Recent instrument checkride. I forgot my Pilots license though..so it ended early.
     
  11. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    What do you want us to do? Why put all that in the internet? What’s to be gained beyond your outreach to the authorities? Maybe you’re looking for revenge or looking to be justified?

    I’ve never posted anything overly harsh on this or any other forum, but this is just wrong. Grind axes much?

    I might delete this post later.
     
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  12. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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  13. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Welcome and sorry to hear about your experience.. couple quick curiosity questions / observations:

    1.) do you not typically check the pitot and static? That's a pretty standard part of the preflight.., if you have it on your plane why would you not check it on the preflight? Regardless of whether it's required for a VFR plane or not, wouldn't you want to be sure that the data you get from your pitot static instruments is correct? Part of the checkride is demonstrating knowledge of the aircraft's systems.. skipping something like that would understandably be a pretty big item for any DPE

    2.) Weight and balance.. that's a big item.. it's part of the ARROW thing you're supposed to do and is critical as to how you load your plane. I can understand him questioning the veracity of the weight and balance if it is not signed on the WB itself (I know you mentioned the POH itself is signed, but that's something you probably should have known)

    3.) What kind of response are you expecting to your letter? "You are right, Rxx Hxx sucks, we fired him and ruined his life, here is your $800 back" ?

    The part that would tick me off more was the struggle with rescheduling with him, and the frequent last minute cancellations... that's just unprofessional and no way to handle one's self. Was it a struggle scheduling with him the first time around? If not, I wonder what happened the second time around where suddenly he is MIA. Does this guy have a reputation for that? Who recommended this DPE? Seems odd that a CFI / school would set you up with someone who apparently can't keep a schedule

    As far as the refund.. it's a fairly known thing that you don't get that money back if you don't pass, even if you think the non passing items were not justified. You pay to take a test.. the outcome of the test does not change the fee that was paid to take it

    I'm sorry you went through that, better luck for any future check rides you go through


    PS, where do you see that pitot static inspection is not part of the private check ride? See below from the FAA ACS
    upload_2019-7-19_19-22-24.png
     
  14. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Curious, did you review the pitot static system and did the new DPE go over the WB docs?

    I often feel like stories like this have more than meets the eye, or at least there are two sides to it. I doubt Rxx Hxx showed up that day determined to mess with the OP. If you do delete it PM and I'll kill my post too so you're dually deleted haha
     
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  15. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Line Up and Wait

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    The FSDO will respond, once a complaint is received it must be investigated. DPE's serve at the pleasure of the Administrator and they are held accountable.

    Like all stories, there are two sides. So far we've only heard one.
     
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  16. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Cleared for Takeoff

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    You seem to have interpreted the X's as a desire to protect this DPE, rather than smear him.
     
  17. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Howdy from another airmen located near Dallas.


    $800 for a private pilot checkride? That sounds awfully high.
     
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  18. Initial Fix

    Initial Fix Pre-Flight

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    Sorry for your saga. It will be interesting how the FAA responds.
     
  19. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    I agree with the OP that every DPE ding he mentioned was bogus. I took him to mean the aircraft logs did not indicate a current static system check (appendix e of part 43) which would have been needed for IFR. It read like he never got around to doing a walk-around on the first discontinuance. AROW W&B information has to be on the airplane but I don't know of any regulation about that info needing to be signed as long as the maintenance record has a proper entry documenting the current empty weight and cg. Assuming the aircraft used was of fairly recent manufacture, the POH would need to be serialized to that aircraft and the w&B current for that airframe. An undated compass deviation card, really? $800 for a pp check is ridiculous. Is there any wonder we don't have more people taking up aviation?
     
  20. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Line Up and Wait

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    Be careful what you wish for.

    Many years ago the pilot community advocated for more DPE’s because those FAA Inspectors are just too mean and scary to take a check ride with. Never mind it was offered for no cost to the applicant, gee, only if we could get a local guy to give the check. And heck, it would be worth handing him a few bucks!

    You wanted it, and you got it!
     
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  21. ZeroPapaGolf

    ZeroPapaGolf Line Up and Wait

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    Small claims court might get your $800 back. If the facts really are as you say it’s fairly clear he was not acting in good faith.
     
  22. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Surely if this guy was that bad he'd have a well known reputation and the school would not have put the two together, right?

    My understanding is that you can still do this, just difficult to schedule / wait and people get more intimidated given that it's by the FAA. Having said that, I was talking to someone recently who did go straight to the FAA for their *FREE* checkride and he had a pleasant experience
     
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  23. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    I find it curious that you are shocked that he is a AA captain. Would it have made more sense if he were actually a baggage handler for AA?
     
  24. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    grifters in the DPE swamp? shocked, i do declare......
     
  25. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    The alleged discrepancies notwithstanding, is the plane you took to the test a flying piece of crap?
     
  26. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

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    Howdy Jxx,

    When writing a letter of complaint to a government agency, stick to the facts and stay objective. Offering your opinion of his personal commitment to his position and whether he cares about the examinees who are paying him and accusing him of extortion are not acceptable. Claiming other clients have been treated unfairly is heresay and will not help your case.

    From your own description of the events, it sounds as though you showed up unprepared for the flight test. The inspector assigned to investigate this will have to filter out what can be proven from all the rest. You will no doubt be asked to come in for a chat and be interviewed to discover the facts.

    Move on with your flying plans and leave Mr. Hxx as a bad memory...
     
  27. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That is how in interpreted it as well.
     
  28. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sounds like Ron Haider from the clues. He's on the FAASTeam, who I'm sure would be interested in his incompetence over required items for a PPL checkride.
     
  29. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I assume you are not a pilot, because what you are describing regarding W&B and Pitot Static inspections are not what they are. You are conflating preflight checklist items with required documentation on an airplane for certain types of flights (the W&B was onboard and signed per the OP, the P/S inspection is an IFR requirement. Running a W&B check is a preflight checklist item that exactly 10 people in the country actually do, and running your hands over the pitot to check for obstructions and operation is not a pitot static check).

    I mean no offense with the "not a pilot" comment - it's just an assumption because you may not have learned this yet and someone who doesn't have their license may not know the difference.
     
  30. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    What exactly did the pink slip say that you failed on the first ride?

    The propeller log is an interesting one, I assume they probably put all needed paperwork in the airframe logs? Either way, you should have been able to explain these for the ride, not look them up after the fact. Some planes logs are a little weird, but its up to you (you're CFI really for the PPL), to make sure you understand what is required and where it is..

    I've never heard of anyone getting a refund, it isn't his fault you failed. Move past that.

    Scheduling can be tough with lots of DPE's, perhaps there is more to rescheduling than he wanted to share with you? Most DPE's have day jobs, or other commitments to schedule around.

    Good job passing your ride, however I would have recommended letting it go.
     
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  31. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    I have no dog in this fight. But I would assume with such little information, that the failure was likely correct.

    If the applicant can't produce the proper documentation or doesn't know how to find it. Does it doesn't really matter if it is there? It isn't up the DPE to have knowledge of these items, its up to the application to show that the plane is airworthy.

    The Pitot static is an odd one, as obviously that isn't required VFR. But then again it is often done with the transponder check which is a required item.

    Without the details, we will never know. Let the FSDO figure it out, they are the only ones that will know if it is a real pattern or just an unfortunate incident.
     
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  32. kath

    kath Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wow.

    I've never heard of those A&P things (1,2,3,4) being required for VFR flight either. [Like others, I also interpreted your description to mean "the kind of official logbook-signed-off pitot-static check required by IFR", rather than "preflight-inspecting the tube and understanding how it works".]
    Yes, he can request the knowledge test *codes*, but you're right, the Knowledge Test people will not tell you the *questions* you missed. DPE's should know that.
    Solo time is absolutely PIC time, it is plain and simple in the regs. DPE's should for sure know that!
    Sorting out all of those things was a colossal waste of your time.

    That being said, I agree with @IK04 that the best way to present your case is to stick to the facts and not accuse malice or extortion. I doubt you'll get a lot of sympathy from the FAA about the money. DPE's set their own prices, and $800 is typical in plenty of places, and once you hand over the money at the start of the ride, it is not refundable. I know, this seems to violate the rules of commerce (written or unwritten) that drive much of the rest of our society, but it's not like a restaurant where you can ask to be comp-ed if the steak was raw, or the repair shop where they have to fix it right for free if they didn't fix it the first time. To the FAA, you're not a customer, you're a candidate.

    But they should definitely look into Mr. RH's knowledge of the regs! Yikes! Sometimes the FAA sends a representative to "ride along" on a checkride, to evaluate the DPE (not the candidate). Maybe Mr. RH will have to have one of those.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  33. NordicDave

    NordicDave Cleared for Takeoff

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    My check ride DPE was an American Airlines Check airman. The guy was a saint. fantastic experience.

    Many DPE's I see are willing to review your logs and paper qualifications for no-charge if you make arrangements in advance. The couple of DPE's on my field are glad to do it after one of their check ride post briefings with a student.

    I did this and DPE found a small nit with IACRA form that would have force a discontinuance. Log books were in order to his satisfaction. Got IARCA fixed and good to go.
     
  34. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    I'm a Judge Judy and People's Court junky. Can't wait to see this silliness on the TV.

    Did XXX XXXXX offer a pass or don't pay guarantee? Is that the norm in this business?
     
  35. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    OP didn't fail. The DPE rejected his documentation and gave him a discontinuance. Solo time is PIC, a Pitot-Static is not required, etc. DPE is incorrect. Read and understand the post before writing worthless replies.
     
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  36. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Help me out here... on the pre-flight checklist, there are items to check the Pitot tube and Static Port(s). Hmm... are you implying that they are not required, or that they only need not be inspected every 24 months for IFR?

    You Sir, are depriving a village somewhere of it's idiot. Please advise us where you intend to fly so we may properly avoid you.

    Almost forgot, be sure to sue the harnyuck that signed you off for the checkride. Since none of it is your issue, the instructor and school are equally liable.
     
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  37. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Just sue me. Fits your narrative better.

    My instructor walked me through everything in the PLANES log books required for the check ride as part of the mock checks. You may well be suing, and disparaging, the wrong biological entity.
     
  38. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It would be interesting the hear the dpe's side of the story.


    Is the flight school and instructor willing to be involved, as in a witness testifying you and the plane were ready for the checkride.??
     
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  39. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Rob, you really need to stop keeping stuff inside, we can't figure out how you really feel, lol, jk.


    OP, I think you are ****ing up the proverbial rope by suing. I will say though, on my last check ride, which was for the instrument rating, the dpe explained that once the iacra paperwork was signed, money was paid, then the test was on, no refunds, pass, fail or discontinuance were the only outcome. What was different from your experience was that we reviewed all my paperwork and endorsements, then we reviewed the aircraft paperwork, which included annual, pitot static, altimeter, transponder, 100 hour, elt, then when he knew everything was correct, he took my money, I signed and it was game on.

    I will say, I knew exactly what was required as my instructor and I spent what ended up being an hour or two gathering everything that was necessary and making sure it was legal. I knew what was needed and would have challenged the dpe there and then if he did something wrong.
     
  40. kath

    kath Cleared for Takeoff

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    I teach at a university. When students want to contest their grade, there is a formal process at the university for handling disputes, and I've seen it invoked many times. Every such formal complaint is investigated at some level, and I've seen verdicts go down both ways. It is *not* handled through lawsuits, except when someone has evidence that the entire grievance process itself has failed.

    Your situation is similar. The DPE does not work for you. His or her job is to represent the FAA and to evaluate you. If you feel this was done improperly, there is a process to go through *first*, which is alerting the FSDO. Which you did, even if your letter was a bit over the top. See what they say. Let the process do its work. A lawsuit is not the appropriate response. The $800 is not refundable, but you might contribute toward getting a problem in the system fixed.
     
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