DP Questions...

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
Ok, maybe I should know this, but here goes anyway. I am using KHND as an example here. Ignore the fact that ATC would probably give you vectors and you wouldn't have to apply the procedures below. Let's say this airport is way out in Class G and it's up to the pilot to find his way into controlled airspace.

Given the below quote from the departure procedures section, does this mean if I take off from Rwy 17L/R, I can depart in ANY direction (like a diverse departure) as long as I can climb at 491' per NM? (assume cat A/B). (i.e. there is no need to fly the departure procedure if you can climb at that rate, or do you have to climb at that rate _and_ fly the DP?)

Alternatively, if I _can't_ climb at 491' per NM, I can use the departure procedure as long as I can climb at 200' per NM? (i.e. the DP can be used if the climb gradients specified in the runway section cannot be met.)

Basically, I'm trying to determine if it's "either" or "BOTH" climb gradient and DP required. I'm pretty sure it's "either" for any combination of climb gradient and DP listed for airports, but just want to verify that assumption.

LAS VEGAS, NV
HENDERSON EXECUTIVE (HND)
ORIG 05132 (FAA)
TAKEOFF MINIMUMS:
Rwy 17L/R,
Cat A/B std. with a
min. climb of 491' per NM to 6000, or 2100-3 for climb in
visual conditions, Cat C/D NA.
Rwy 35L/R,
Cat A/B std.
with a min. climb of 312' per NM to 4700, or 2100-3 for
climb in visual conditions, Cat C/D NA.
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
Rwy 17L/R, climbing right turn via LAS R-157 to LAS VORTAC before proceeding on course, or for climb in visual conditions: Cross Henderson Executive Airport eastbound at or above 4500, then via BLD R-249 to BLD VORTAC.
Rwy 35L/R, climbing right turn via BLD R-257 to BLD VORTAC before proceeding on course, or for climb in visual conditions: Cross Henderson Executive Airport eastbound at or above 4500, then via BLD R-249 to BLD
VORTAC.
NOTE:
Rwy 17L, tree 5610' from DER, 82' left of centerline, 100' AGL/2739' MSL. Tree 1.9 miles from DER, 1495' left of centerline, 100' AGL/2859' MSL.
Rwy 17R, tree 4041' from DER, 859' left of centerline, 100' AGL/2739' MSL.
 
It's both. You have to be able to meet the climb gradient while following the DP.

In the case of HND RWY 17L/R, if you can't do that, you can climb in visual conditions as long as the weather is 2100-3 or better.
 
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dans2992 said:
Alternatively, if I _can't_ climb at 491' per NM, I can use the departure procedure as long as I can climb at 200' per NM? (i.e. the DP can be used if the climb gradients specified in the runway section cannot be met.)
Click to expand...

It's only through luck that I avoided dying from that misconception in an IFR departure from South Lake Tahoe years ago. :hairraise:

I hate it when I survive by accident!

What I learned after reviewing the situation was that, although pilots in Part 91 operations are not required to obey the published IFR departure minimums, THE OBSTACLE DEPARTURE PROCEDURE DOES NOT GUARANTEE TERRAIN AND OBSTRUCTION CLEARANCE IF YOU DON'T! :hairraise::hairraise::hairraise:

By the way, my understanding is that a diverse departure area exists only if there is a published instrument approach, and no published instrument departure procedure.
 
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You'd think they would make this clearer...

Yes, looking at the DP and gradients for TEX, the answer becomes obvious...

Thanks,
Dan
 
So, looking at the DP for KPAN (Payson, AZ) if I understand this correctly, a part 135 operator could not depart this airport unless the weather was above 2500-3?

The DP requires visual to 2500-3, but the runway section indicates you need the climb gradient _OR_ 2500-3. That would seem to indicate you don't need the DP if you can do the gradient. They don't make this easy, do they?

PAYSON, AZ
PAYSON (PAN)
AMDT 1A 12320 (FAA)
TAKEOFF MINIMUMS:
Rwy 6,
std. w/ min. climb of
360' per NM to 9300, or 2500-3 for climb in visual
conditions.
Rwy 24,
std. w/ min. climb of 375' per
NM to 9300, or 2500-3 for climb in visual conditions.
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
Rwys 6, 24,
for climb
in visual conditions: Cross Payson Airport at or
above 7500 MSL before proceeding on course.
When executing VCOA, notify ATC prior to
departure.
NOTE:
Rwy 6,
tree 197’ from DER, 118’ right of
centerline, up to 12’ AGL/5170’ MSL. Bush 83’ from
DER, 99’ right of centerline, up to 3’ AGL/5161’
MSL.

Rwy 24,
bush 15' from DER, 133' right of
centerline, 6' AGL/5148' MSL. Tree 320' from DER,
183' right of centerline, 12' AGL/5154' MSL. Fence
85' from DER, 84' left of centerline, 4' AGL/5141'
MSL. Tree 164' from DER, 126' left of centerline, 9'
AGL/5147' MSL.
 
dans2992 said:
So, looking at the DP for KPAN (Payson, AZ) if I understand this correctly, a part 135 operator could not depart this airport unless the weather was above 2500-3?
Click to expand...
Could not depart if unable 360'/NM (RWY 6) unless 2500-3. There's only a departure procedure for VCOA in this case. They aren't demanding you do that, they're offering an alternative to the climb gradient restriction.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Could not depart if unable 360'/NM (RWY 6) unless 2500-3. There's only a departure procedure for VCOA in this case. They aren't demanding you do that, they're offering an alternative to the climb gradient restriction.

dtuuri
Click to expand...

Ok, but that would imply its either the gradient _or_ the DP. I thought it was both....?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
dans2992 said:
So, looking at the DP for KPAN (Payson, AZ) if I understand this correctly, a part 135 operator could not depart this airport unless the weather was above 2500-3?
Click to expand...

If you can meet the climb gradient published for the departure runway (RWY 6 or 24), you can use standard takeoff minimums with no turns commenced before 400 ft AGL. You'll also notice that 9,300 ft is the MSA on the RNAV-A into PAN.

dans2992 said:
Ok, but that would imply its either the gradient _or_ the DP. I thought it was both....?
Click to expand...

Normally, yes. In this case though, the ODP is only for a climb in visual conditions. In my opinion, this ODP is lacking a real procedure for an IFR departure in IMC.
 
I know when you type "DP" you're talking about Departure Procedures in the aviation world, but I suggest you look up that acronym in the Urban Dictionary before using it much outside of a friendly pilot forum. ;) ;) ;)
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
If you can meet the climb gradient published for the departure runway (RWY 6 or 24), you can use standard takeoff minimums with no turns commenced before 400 ft AGL. You'll also notice that 9,300 ft is the MSA on the RNAV-A into PAN.



Normally, yes. In this case though, the ODP is only for a climb in visual conditions. In my opinion, this ODP is lacking a real procedure for an IFR departure in IMC.
Click to expand...

If you make good the climb gradient it is a diverse departure. This is in violation of the departure order as is KSVC. But, nonetheless, until they fix it someday, the Part 135 operator can make a diverse departure provided he complies with the climb gradient.
 
denverpilot said:
I know when you type "DP" you're talking about Departure Procedures in the aviation world, but I suggest you look up that acronym in the Urban Dictionary before using it much outside of a friendly pilot forum. ;) ;) ;)
Click to expand...

Yep........
 
denverpilot said:
I know when you type "DP" you're talking about Departure Procedures in the aviation world, but I suggest you look up that acronym in the Urban Dictionary before using it much outside of a friendly pilot forum. ;) ;) ;)
Click to expand...
And wouldn't they be surprised if they used it here.
 
aterpster said:
If you make good the climb gradient it is a diverse departure. This is in violation of the departure order as is KSVC. But, nonetheless, until they fix it someday, the Part 135 operator can make a diverse departure provided he complies with the climb gradient.
Click to expand...
Not sure I follow the "violation" comment. Could you elaborate?

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Not sure I follow the "violation" comment. Could you elaborate?

dtuuri
Click to expand...

The departure order requires that the least onerous climb gradient be provided for an ODP. (FAAO 8260.46D.) This almost always requires a route ODP in a mountainous area.

PAN should have an RNAV route ODP since there are no VORs nearby and the only IAP is an RNAV IAP.

KSVC has an on-airport VOR so a route ODP towards DMN would be 40:1 clear.
 
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