Don't Use Batteryminders On Your Aircraft Batteries!

Geico266

Geico266

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Geico
Nice!

After spending $180 on the superdooper Batteryminder charger that they (the Batteryminder company) assured me it could be safely used on AGM batteries they generously makes me an offer to trade up to get an "Aviation grade" Batteryminder because the old one (I bought last freakin year!:mad2:) will cause aviation batteries to fail and will shorten their life.

Nice......real nice. :no: :mad2: :no:

http://www.batteryminders.com/specials.php

Like I would ever buy a Batteryminder again. :no:

Is there a good class action lawyer in the house????? I'll settle for an even up EXCHANGE for a new charger, not a 40% discount from retail. Give me a freakin break!
 
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Geico, I have two AGM batteries, both Concorde 35s and the battery on my Seneca II is now five years old. It just passed the 85% discharge test again, about five weeks ago. The now 12 year old Concorde RG (AXC35) has lived on one after I retired it from service and just started my across-the-row Skylane's depleted all winter C182 as if it were a turbine.

Mike flown in the ship when it was powered by the old battery. I just got scared after some years and replaced it (but I'm not going to do that pre-emptively any longer!)

I would never "upgrade". I've already saved probably the cost of four batteries.....each at about $190-210. And just to clarify, I'm using the $49.95 variety, which null out at 14.18V rather than 14.0 on the "aviation" one. But it's only going 40 milliamps at 14.18 which it claerly has tolerated for 7 years (case 1) and five years (case 2).

If you pull the literature on the Corcorde AXC35, it wants 14.3 V.
 
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Geico266 said:
Nice!

After spending $180 on the superdooper Batteryminder charger that they (the Batteryminder company) assured me it could be safely used on AGM batteries they generously makes me an offer to trade up to get an "Aviation grade" Batteryminder because the old one (I bought last freakin year!:mad2:) will cause aviation batteries to fail and will shorten their life.

Nice......real nice. :no: :mad2: :no:

http://www.batteryminders.com/specials.php

Like I would ever buy a Batteryminder again. :no:

Is there a good class action lawyer in the house????? I'll settle for an even up EXCHANGE for a new charger, not a 40% discount from retail. Give me a freakin break!
Click to expand...

What exactly is the difference? I called the folks at BatteryMinder and the best they could offer was that they thought the aviation version was set to a different voltage by default but the documentation I read suggests that the non-aviation one is user settable. One or both has a remote temp probe to allow compensation for the temp of the battery but I'm not sure which one has that and I doubt that it's all that important given the low charging rates used.
 
So Batteryminder is pulling our leg trying to sell us an othern charger we don't need?

Nice............ real nice.
 
Yup. And that's the way it is. It has "Airplane" on it and is 350% more expensive.

Sigh.
 
I have been bantering back & forth with the Batteryminder VP.

Here is the e-mail he just sent me.


Larry,

If any of our direct factory personnel, including me, have implied there is a safety issue or a significant shortening of performance or life if our standard BatteryMINDers are used on Odyssey PLT batteries, we have been misunderstood.
Odyssey's (600 series, including FAA version) can be charged and maintained with our standard BatteryMINDers without hurting the battery. The higher charge and float voltages Odyssey recommends, will further extend the battery's capacity (by approx. 5%, based on our testing). Compared to any other chargers we have seen and tested, currently on the market, our standard BatteryMINDers do a much better-safer job. Are they as good as our Aviation Specific unit 12248-AA-S3, specifically approved by Odyssey, just several months ago? NO.

Our greatest concern is and has been since the beginning, is to do our best to match the correct charger with any battery type-brand. Concordes and Gills are the most vulnerable to damage and shorten life-performance when a non-aviation specific charger is used to maintain them. If you think our motivation is primarily money driven, your mistaken.

Judging by your tone and choice of words, I doubt any of what I have offered as honest responses will have any affect on your opinion of us and our products. Suffice it to say we will respond in kind to any and all information falsely attributed to us by any source.

In my forty-plus years in business I have never encountered any customer who refused to take or return my call. I was hoping this would not be the first.

William T. Woods,
Vice President
VDC Electronics, Inc.

The problem is the first paragraph on his web site says the chargers kill Odyssey batteries.

Trade-up offer for new BatteryMINDer Aircraft charger-maintainers


We're making a unique offer to ensure aviation batteries are being 100% charged and safely maintained, without ever overcharging them. Earlier, non-aviation specific BatteryMINDers and certain manufacturer's otherwise safe charger maintainers, have proven to damage or shorten the life and performance of 12- and 24-Volt aviation batteries made by Concorde®, Gill® and Odyssey®.


The second problem is I don't take kindly to threats.
 
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Geico266 said:
I have been bantering back & forth with the Batteryminder VP.

Here is the e-mail he just sent me.


Larry,

If any of our direct factory personnel, including me, have implied there is a safety issue or a significant shortening of performance or life if our standard BatteryMINDers are used on Odyssey PLT batteries, we have been misunderstood.
Odyssey's (600 series, including FAA version) can be charged and maintained with our standard BatteryMINDers without hurting the battery. The higher charge and float voltages Odyssey recommends, will further extend the battery's capacity (by approx. 5%, based on our testing). Compared to any other chargers we have seen and tested, currently on the market, our standard BatteryMINDers do a much better-safer job. Are they as good as our Aviation Specific unit 12248-AA-S3, specifically approved by Odyssey, just several months ago? NO.

Our greatest concern is and has been since the beginning, is to do our best to match the correct charger with any battery type-brand. Concordes and Gills are the most vulnerable to damage and shorten life-performance when a non-aviation specific charger is used to maintain them. If you think our motivation is primarily money driven, your mistaken.

Judging by your tone and choice of words, I doubt any of what I have offered as honest responses will have any affect on your opinion of us and our products. Suffice it to say we will respond in kind to any and all information falsely attributed to us by any source.

In my forty-plus years in business I have never encountered any customer who refused to take or return my call. I was hoping this would not be the first.

William T. Woods,
Vice President
VDC Electronics, Inc.

The problem is the first paragraph on his web site says the chargers kill Odyssey batteries.

Trade-up offer for new BatteryMINDer Aircraft charger-maintainers


We're making a unique offer to ensure aviation batteries are being 100% charged and safely maintained, without ever overcharging them. Earlier, non-aviation specific BatteryMINDers and certain manufacturer's otherwise safe charger maintainers, have proven to damage or shorten the life and performance of 12- and 24-Volt aviation batteries made by Concorde®, Gill® and Odyssey®.


The second problem is I don't take kindly to threats.
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Apparently, treating customers with care isn't a concept well understood at Battery Minder. Like I mentioned before I've never been able to get a technically coherent response from them regarding the difference between the aviation specific version and the regular one which makes me suspect that they really don't know what they're talking about. I couldn't even get a clear response to the question "Does the aviation version work OK on non-AGM aircraft batteries or should one use the non-aviation version on them?"

In any case, unless you leave the charger connected most of the time I seriously doubt that there would be any perceptible difference between the two models as far as battery life is concerned. Heck, your aircraft alternator "abuses" the battery for hours at a time with excessive voltage for continuous charging and way more current after startup than should be applied at any time.
 
Well as long as we are piling on to batteryminder here is my experience.

I got sold on the idea of getting on of these last year. So I called and spoke with one of the guys there and placed an order. He was most helpful and offered much advise and assistance. But my battery minder never came. Nor was my credit card charged. I called back and inquired about my order but never got a response. I consider my lucky that it did not come now.
 
Scott, they're not setup to deal with customers. Use Northerntool.com
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200332201_200332201

The model that GEICO's got looks like a 2-4-8 amp in which case the potential to dry out the adsorbmed mat is much higher.

We're talking economics here. The $49.95 model isn't perfect but it's much better than letting batteries rot every 2-3 years and I can't find the "damage" in my two AXC35s. The 40 mv pulse doesn't seem to hurt them.

On the other hand, I do have a Yuasa Moped that live on one and I do top off the cells every spring.....they consume a little bit of distilled water, though not much.

PS no financial connection to VDC here.....just so relieved to not be replacing by $200 battery every 30 months.
 
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bbchien said:
Scott, they're not setup to deal with customers. Use Northerntool.com
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200332201_200332201

The model that GEICO's got looks like a 2-4-8 amp in which case the potential to dry out the adsorbmed mat is much higher.

We're talking economics here. The $49.95 model isn't perfect but it's much better than letting batteries rot every 2-3 years and I can't find the "damage" in my two AXC35s. The 40 mv pulse doesn't seem to hurt them.

On the other hand, I do have a Yuasa Moped that live on one and I do top off the cells every spring.....they consume a little bit of distilled water, though not much.

PS no financial connection to VDC here.....just so relieved to not be replacing by $200 battery every 30 months.
Click to expand...

Northern also sells the 2/4/8 amp version but not the aviation derivative. And according to their hype it should be fine on AGM aircraft batteries like the Concord RGXC:

Safely charges any size/type or brand of 12V lead-acid battery, including wet, dry-sealed gel, AGM and maintenance-free spiral types — with no overcharging.
Click to expand...
 
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gismo said:
Northern also sells the 2/4/8 amp version but not the aviation derivative. And according to their hype it should be fine on AGM aircraft batteries like the Concord RGXC:
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This is what I don't understand. The owner of the company says their chargers won't hurt anything, but their web site says it will.

Put the Batteryminder in the trash where it belongs. :yesnod:
 
Geico266 said:
This is what I don't understand. The owner of the company says their chargers won't hurt anything, but their web site says it will.

Put the Batteryminder in the trash where it belongs. :yesnod:
Click to expand...

Trouble is, I don't know of any decent competing products that do what the BM stuff does.
 
gismo said:
Trouble is, I don't know of any decent competing products that do what the BM stuff does.
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Smart guy like you could make one.... :D

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/11/desulfator_kit.html
even comes in a kit:

These circuits are not average consumer safe. These circuits run at the edge of the performance envelope. As they are designed with performance as the prime consideration, they can be damaged with improper use.

There are no safeguards against incorrect polarity. To have included such protection would have decreased performance. If you connect it incorrectly it will destroy the unit.

To compare this with other pulsers on the market is like comparing the family station wagon with something that blisters through the 1/4 mile belching flames.

http://home.comcast.net/~ddenhardt201263/desulfator/desulfparts.htm
Click to expand...
:hairraise:
 
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Geico266 said:
This is what I don't understand. The owner of the company says their chargers won't hurt anything, but their web site says it will.

Put the Batteryminder in the trash where it belongs. :yesnod:
Click to expand...
Hey if you don't want it I'll send you a SAS(BOX) mailer to me.........
 
bbchien said:
Mike flown in the ship when it was powered by the old battery. I just got scared after some years and replaced it (but I'm not going to do that pre-emptively any longer!)
Click to expand...

Cars with a stick or airplanes I can prop (and a Seneca is definitely a "propable" airplane) I wait for batteries to fail, and then I'll pull em out, drop em on the ground from about 9" onto the pavement a couple of three times and then stick it back in. Typically the sulfation bridge has broken, and we're good for a while after it gets a fresh charge on it. The desulfinators are excellent and I've had great luck with them. They won't do the job forever though since the residue collects at the bottom of the battery and will eventually short the plates there.
 
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After I pointed out to the VP of the Batteryminder that he says no harm will come to your battery, but their web site says it will hurt aviation batteries I get this e-mail.....


Larry,
Expect a full reply to all your comments within the next few days.
It's clear a much deeper explanation from us is needed as to our motivation-reasons, actions, advice and concerns re the use of non-specific chargers on Aviation-Specific batteries.
For the record Aviation Specific batteries (Lead-Acid based, sealed or flooded) are those that are FAA and PMA Certified. Odyssey batteries, with the exception of one 600 series model that is FAA-PMA certified, are not aviation batteries. They are unquestionably good batteries and may indeed be better choices for experimental aircraft than Gill or Concorde Aviation Specific FAA-PMA Certified types. Perhaps this will give you a hint of what we will try to convey to you going forward.

Bill

Seems to me there will be some major back peddling going on here soon.
 
I've been waiting for Northern Tool to drop the price on the big BatteryMinder again, for my 4 batteries outside. I'm gonna have wires going everywhere.

(Even the little 1 amp BatteryMINDer, which I have, can handle 4 batteries at once wired in parallel. I run a jumper cable between cars now.)
 
bbchien said:
Scott, they're not setup to deal with customers. ...
Click to expand...

I guess so. I mailed a check for shipping of the "free" battery monitor and never got it.

I'm glad I decided not to buy extra battery cables. I'm making them myself. Radio Shack has the male/female power connector.
 
Henning said:
Cars with a stick or airplanes I can prop (and a Seneca is definitely a "propable" airplane) I wait for batteries to fail, and then I'll pull em out, drop em on the ground from about 9" onto the pavement a couple of three times and then stick it back in. Typically the sulfation bridge has broken, and we're good for a while after it gets a fresh charge on it. The desulfinators are excellent and I've had great luck with them. They won't do the job forever though since the residue collects at the bottom of the battery and will eventually short the plates there.
Click to expand...

That might be OK if you only fly day VFR, but the battery is the only source of backup electrical power in most singles. Waiting until the battery is so far gone it won't even start the airplane is asking for an opportunity to practice your ded reconning skills in the clouds and or at night.
 
gismo said:
That might be OK if you only fly day VFR, but the battery is the only source of backup electrical power in most singles. Waiting until the battery is so far gone it won't even start the airplane is asking for an opportunity to practice your ded reconning skills in the clouds and or at night.
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So when do you replace them? Only way I know for 95% assurance of having a good battery is to replace them every 18 months whether you use it or not. I can keep 85% if I replace at 3 years, after that (without the desulfator) I'm on borrowed time which has been anywhere from then to 5 years.
 
You annually have the local battery shop do the "85% discharge test" or whatever the specs call out, for that battery. If it passes, you keep flying it.

Batteries Plus does it for free, hoping you'll buy the next one from them.....

I know, I know, GA batteries don't have ICAW instructions, but they do publish mfr's specs....
 
bbchien said:
You annually have the local battery shop do the "85% discharge test" or whatever the specs call out, for that battery. If it passes, you keep flying it.

Batteries Plus does it for free, hoping you'll buy the next one from them.....

I know, I know, GA batteries don't have ICAW instructions, but they do publish mfr's specs....
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That is no assurance of anything. The mineral bridge between the plates may have a fraction to go and pass a load test perfectly and the next day have a shorted cell.
 
'course that can happen anytime. Just matters how topped to keep it (less PbSO4 out of solution...).....you can never win!
 
Henning said:
That is no assurance of anything. The mineral bridge between the plates may have a fraction to go and pass a load test perfectly and the next day have a shorted cell.
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True, but not likely. A discharge capacity test will usually fail before a shorted cell occurs on a flooded cell battery. With AGM construction shorted cells don't normally occur although they can develop a cell problem that causes the cell to self discharge faster than normal.

But my point was that a battery that will still (barely) start the engine can have as little as 20% of it's rated capacity and with one of those you will lose the entire electrical system shortly after the alternator fails.
 
It's a matter of getting optimum performance out of the batteries. Odyssey batteries need to have the specific charger to do this, Battery Minder and Battery Tender will not provide the optimum battery performance.

As an additional point of reference I use a PC680 (if I recall correctly) on a racecar (2000 Mustang GT), and have been getting excellent performance out of it for over 5 years now. It weighs 15lbs... stock battery weighs something like 45 lbs. I use the battery tender, and it does not provide the proper top charge... but so far I'm very satisfied.
 
bbchien said:
I know, I know, GA batteries don't have ICAW instructions, but they do publish mfr's specs....
Click to expand...

Well, not official ICAW, but Gill batteries contain a specific Continued Airworthiness procedure in the instruction manual. At least the last one I bought did....
 
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