Does ground/clearance delivery know the phrase "learner pilot"?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by schmookeeg, Nov 12, 2022.

  1. Lindberg

    Lindberg Final Approach

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    I thought the whole point of "learner pilot" was to make a distinction between "student pilots," i.e., pilots who do not have any certificate other than a student pilot certificate, and other pilots who might be taking lessons for, e.g., an additional rating or certificate.
     
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  2. IK04

    IK04 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    There was no real point to it. It was changed on a whim by bureaucrats.
     
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  3. woodchucker

    woodchucker Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I’ll be honest. I’m a “learner” pilot in the middle of IR. I wish there was a way to slow down the clearance.

    I try to copy but I’m not fast enough yet to keep up with the stream of info. Need more practice I guess.
     
  4. Jim K

    Jim K En-Route PoA Supporter

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    You'll get used to it. One thing I find helpful is to write down what you expect to hear. I use the "CRAFT" acronym; you can pretty reliably guess everything except the transponder code, and having it already written down means you're confirming and correcting rather than furiously copying.

    Same thing for the "PTAC" for an approach clearance, except I don't write it out. You should know your position, and they don't need that read back, so just make sure it checks and then forget it. Then you're down to 3 things to remember/read back: turn, altitude, and clearance, all of which you should already know or have a really close guess. The approach clearance was the hardest part for me until I figured that out.

    You have to stay ahead of the airplane AND the controller.
     
  5. guest user

    guest user Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Might I suggest pilotedge.net? It is a sim site, where you will use an actual headset and verbally interact with ATC using MS Flight Simulator, XPlane, or Prepar3D. This is a paid site, but at $19/mo the training is absolutely way above and beyond the cost. You will be interacting with FAA certified ATC controllers, so your clearance should be given at the actual speed of real life. You can fly and file as many IFR flights on pilotedge as you want. You will be vectored as in real life, it is very good for your use case. (There is another option called vatsim, but the qualifications of the controllers are not as, shall we say, consistent).
     
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  6. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Just imagine - if the many FAA employees who deal with changing student pilot to learner in all their publications, who carefully check for the new meaning of NOTAM, and who eliminate words like "airman" and "cockpit" - if all those employees were instead dealing with the backlog of aircraft registrations, or review special issuance medical cases, or help out with processing certification paperwork - oh my, we might call the FAA responsive and agile.

    - Martin
     
  7. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes, but does either site know the phrase "learner pilot"?

    :D :drool::cheers:
     
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  8. Half Fast

    Half Fast Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And we might already have unleaded fuel at FBOs, too!

    A few years ago, the AOPA fought against privatization of ATC. Maybe they should begin to fight for privatization of the FAA....
     
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  9. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    The problem I have with that is that ATC actually works reasonably well. It’s not the part of the FAA that really needs fixing.

    - Martin
     
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  10. RussR

    RussR En-Route

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    In addition to what @Jim K says about pre-writing the known or expected items, I'll add this - when you're listening and writing the clearance, don't put any effort into interpreting it at that time. Just listen and write what you hear. Like a machine. Don't worry about spelling of fixes or anything. Just write what you hear. I find that what gets people hung up is they're trying to "translate" it as they go, and that means your brain is still working on the part of the clearance 5 items ago, while the controller hasn't stopped talking. So you get behind, just like you might when learning a foreign language.

    So just scribble things down, then when they're done, take a quick look through it to see if you have any obvious questions, then read it back. Then put it into your GPS or whatever, and if you find that you have questions at that point, no harm in calling clearance back to clarify (like spelling of a fix name).
     
  11. Half Fast

    Half Fast Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Oh, I agree. I should have written, "Maybe they should begin to fight for privatization of the rest of the FAA...."
     
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  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Adding to this:
    PilotEdge has the ability for non-subscribers to listen in with a downloadable Windows and Mac app. So you can start put by simply listening in. And since these are based on real clearances, you are not practicing on something made up by your CFI. And during a typical day, you'll probably hear more GA variety than you might by listening into a CD channel on LiveATC.

    An on the fence issue is, a lot of this takes place at SOCAL. The minus is that it is localized - TEC routes in a way you don't see used elsewhere. But the plus is that the clearances are typically more complex than you will get in most places and require greater knowledge and skill in setting up and using your avionics.
     
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  13. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Technical Administrator

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    "I'll certify any airplane, any color for $99.95!"

    Nauga,
    worth every penny
     
  14. Half Fast

    Half Fast Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think I'd settle for privatization of just the medical branch.

    For a start.
     
  15. TCABM

    TCABM En-Route

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    Welcome to BasicMed.
     
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  16. Half Fast

    Half Fast Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yep. Now let’s do it for Class 3.
     
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  17. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Any controller worth his salt can pick a student pilot on the first transmission. If someone told me that they were a “learner” pilot I’d have to ask what type aircraft that was because we don’t have a code for that.

    Anyone offended by “student pilot” isn’t worth hanging around.
     
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  18. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    An important thing to learn about that is to carefully review what you wrote down and make sure that it will be absolutely clear to you once you're flying it. I learned that lesson the hard way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
  19. lsaway

    lsaway Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What about "training flight" or "training op" if you want everybody to know without offending those sensitive to "student pilot".
     
  20. woodchucker

    woodchucker Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Haven’t heard PTAC before. What is the “turn” component you mentioned?
     
  21. woodchucker

    woodchucker Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I actually tried the free month with them. Maybe I’ll give it another shot. Thanks for the reminder!
     
  22. Jim K

    Jim K En-Route PoA Supporter

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    When getting vectors to final, they'll give you a heading to fly to intercept the final approach course when they clear you for the approach.
     
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  23. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The standard phraseology for a controller giving the final vector to the final approach course on an instrument approach is

    three miles from [FAF]) (position)
    Turn right heading 320" (turn)
    Maintain 3000 until established (altitude)
    Cleared for the ILS runway 35 (cleared)
    "
     
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  24. IK04

    IK04 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I now remember that from the Instrument Examiner's course. We had to be able to issue approach clearances as well as have the format for AWOS and ATIS memorized.

    Good times!
     
  25. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I have enjoyed the diverse perspectives this topic brought forth. I may retain a few of you to hide some coal for me and turn it into diamonds. :p

    Just to close the loop from my end, my learner pilot -- who does not hold an IR -- impressed me by being more current and competent than most of the IR pilots I have flown and done IPC work with recently. He diligently copied, read back, and flew a clearance out of the SF Bay up into Oregon IMC, and since he was new to PNW winters, we got to discuss the icing we would possibly (and ultimately, did) find ourselves in. Then, as previously briefed and planned, he asked ATC for an altitude change early and when he noticed his 5kt airspeed degradation and ice slowly forming on our leading edges -- then he hand-flew a tidy RNAV approach with a 20G42 crosswind at our destination.

    ...we ate lunch, contemplated a successful XC flight, and then did it all again in reverse.

    I felt like the learner pilot -- as instructor. Because I had made incorrect assumptions about what we'd be doing with his insurance-mandated IR training requirements. I thought I'd be teaching how to not instantly graveyard spiral upon putting foggles on. I should be signing him off for a checkride instead.

    He is quite far from needing the "learner pilot" crutch. Some of the 1500 hour guys I've flown with lately, however, would do well to have it on standby. :D
     
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  26. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I can see the need for that - for CFIIs too.
    I actually never heard the acronym until this past year. Thought it was a halfway decent learning tool.
     
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  27. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I've had similar experiences flying with pilots to meet requirements and feeling I could have given them a list of tasks and taken a nap.
     
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  28. Jim K

    Jim K En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I was fortunate that my cfii is a check airman for a 141 school in his day job. He was very good at playing atc, and taught me to expect their next instruction. We'd be getting vectored to an approach and he'd ask me what the PTAC call would be. The turn is almost always a 30 degree intercept to final.

    He also taught me the "TLAR" acronym :D

    Is he currently working on his IR? Seems odd to have that skill set and not get it done, if only for the insurance discount. Also curious what you were flying . Sounds like it was an insurance required checkout?
     
  29. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :D

    I was wondering whether he was a PilotEdge simmer.
     
  30. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Haha, I totally asked about it -- He has done a ton of safety piloting and a ton of youtube. No PilotEdge or simming. :) Impressive stuff. I hate youtube, but may need to start looking for some wheat in the chaff, the results spoke for themselves.

    Yeah, about 80% of my training is insurance-mandated checkout/transition training for bonanzas and barons. They've been passing out some really punitive demands lately. Like 35 hours dual to airline captains with no bonanza time. Like, wtf? I never have enough to teach those guys so we end up flying somewhere cool to run down the clock.
     
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  31. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There is a significant amount of wheat there if you look for it. When I do transitions, particularly avionics transitions, I give my client a recommended playlist.
     
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  32. Sundancer

    Sundancer En-Route

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    I got back IFR currency (and flying) over the summer after a long layoff - I told an approach controller I was "shaking the rust off" - I (and I think he) liked that better than "Re-learner IFR pilot."
     
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  33. the dude

    the dude Filing Flight Plan

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    I'll be that''s one of dem there learner pilots over yander. Been a pilot since '87 and I'm not calling students learner pilots .If it offends someone then they need to have a baby on board sticker when they are out there studenting.
     
  34. Gilbert Buettner

    Gilbert Buettner Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You can still find a time to use it, in this way. You accidentally miss an assigned heading or altitude, ATC asks what's happening, you can always reply "Student training in progress."

    I learned this from an instructor late at night after Atlanta Center asked us why we were more than ten miles off course. We had been talking about a subject not related to flying, and missed a turn.
     
  35. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Govt contractors.
     
  36. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I attempted to give a PAR once with the phraseology “student final controller” and the flight lead (F-16) came back with “we need a qualified controller.” My instructor kicks my chair across the room, pulls my plug out of the jack and takes over the approach. I was sitting there with a stunned look on my face. That was a new one. :(
     
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  37. write-stuff

    write-stuff En-Route

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    Anyone who thinks "student pilot" is an offensive term is simply looking for a reason to be offended.
     
  38. Gilbert Buettner

    Gilbert Buettner Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I take my students to a nearby airport with a tower and always teach them what to do if they hear the directive, "Make short approach." Keeping it tight should not be unspoken.
     
  39. ArrowFlyer86

    ArrowFlyer86 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Never heard the phrase 'learner pilot'.

    As a student I used the "student pilot" phrase on 3 occasions:
    (1) First solo I let gnd/twr know "student pilot first solo" on initial call-up as per my CFI's instructions
    (2) Cases where tower gave me a series of instructions I didn't understand
    (3) When I made my first call to a very busy Chicago Approach to pick up flight following and totally biff'd it. Clogged the channel w/needless detail while not giving them what they needed. Somehow tacking "student pilot" onto my call helped me cope with my radio shame :eek:

    Never felt embarrassed to say student, though.
     
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  40. Mongoose Aviator

    Mongoose Aviator Pre-Flight

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    I have heard one of the controllers at a local Class D airport get quite upset after issuing a land and hold short only to have the pilot reply back that they were a student on solo. The controller wanted to know why the pilot did not identify themselves as such in the initial radio call.

    When I was flying as student on solo, my CFI instructed me to identify as such with every new controller on the first radio call.

    I had zero interest in pretending to be more qualified than I actually was.

    On the other hand, when I was flying dual with my CFI in the airplane, I never identified as student. If anything became past my capabilities at the time - it immediately would be my CFI who would handle it. So no need to identify as student and possible confuse ATC into thinking it was a student on solo. That is how my CFI wanted it so that is how it was for me. Plus it made sense to me.