Does ATC Report Traffic Alerts to the FAA?

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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I made an IFR trip to Destin over the weekend with my Bonanza student. During the last leg of our trip, while over Mobile, we had a traffic conflict with another Bonanza that was on VFR Flight Following.

I noticed a target on ADS-B that would be in-conflict within the next few miles and told my student to watch for him. A few minutes later ATC issued a traffic advisory about IFR traffic, us, to the VFR Bo. The Bo acknowledge the advisory and the same advisory was given to us. During this time the VFR Bo was descending on a perpendicular course to us. About 30 seconds after the initial point out the controller asked the VFR Bo to expedite his decent for crossing IFR, us, traffic. At this point I was starting to get worried as the ADS-B showed him descending on top of us. ATC issued a traffic alert to the VFR Bo as he approached our 2 mile ADS-B ring ATC. To which, the VFR Bo only replied casually and kept his current descent rate. Upon seeing this ATC issued a immediate climb to us for an approaching traffic alert. At the same time as the call I caught the traffic visually as he passed less then 1/2 mile behind at our altitude.

The controller sounded angry and I could hear the alert alarm going off in the background of his voice. I told him that the guy passed behind us less than 1/2 mile at our altitude. He thanked us for the information and said it was going into his report.

So does ATC have to write reports about traffic alerts and do these get sent to the FAA? Is that guy in trouble or is it nothing towards him?
 
ATC is the FAA.
 
The Air Traffic Organization (ATO) will forward a report to Flight Standards (AFS) in the case of pilot deviations. The ATO is operated completely separately from the enforcement side of the FAA.

If there really was some sort of report filed, I would be pretty surprised. From what you've told us in this story, there's no way to substantiate a claim that the Bonanza pilot didn't increase his descent rate or failed to comply with an ATC instruction. If you were over Mobile, they were presumably providing Class C separation service, but even with that, the separation standard between a VFR and IFR aircraft is "target resolution," meaning the targets on the radar display cannot merge at the same altitude. Even better, once you crossed the Bonanza's course, even if there were a higher separation standard, its application could be discontinued, because you would then be considered diverging traffic.
 
I don't believe the "snitch patch" will send out a report on that. Like above, VFR vs IFR in a C, all they need is target resolution. If the computer didn't send anything out, I doubt the controller on position will report it.
 
airdale said:
ATC is the FAA.
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Well not necessarily. Military, civ DOD and contract. While I have a FAA "pink card" and CTO, I wasn't in the FAA.

I think the OP is referring to higher authorities. In the event of loss of separation, that'll be the FAA region that the facility is under.
 
What you describe was not a loss-of-separation event. He may very well submit a controller equivalent of a ASRS report ("NASA report") as a potential safety issue. But it doesn't sound like anyone got numbers to call and no enforcement is likely (most because it doesn't sound like any rules were broken or ATC instructions ignored).

FWIW, you'll hear that alarm in the background all the time.
 
The responses make sense. I was curious after the controller thanked me for the report and said it would be used. We got switched shortly after so I don't know if anything else was said towards the other pilot. I was just slightly annoyed towards the other guy for not increasing his descent rate. Mainly because it got my non pilot friend worried about it.
 
ARFlyer said:
So does ATC have to write reports about traffic alerts and do these get sent to the FAA?
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No unless there was blatant pilot deviation. You can tell someone to descend, turn right, left etc but you can't control how fast they do it. The controller probably sounded mad because he was mad at himself for not doing something to avoid the traffic alert altogether. I've given quite a few traffic alerts and it never went into any report, maybe the daily log but not some report that went to the FAA.
 
Timbeck2 said:
No unless there was blatant pilot deviation. You can tell someone to descend, turn right, left etc but you can't control how fast they do it. The controller probably sounded mad because he was mad at himself for not doing something to avoid the traffic alert altogether. I've given quite a few traffic alerts and it never went into any report, maybe the daily log but not some report that went to the FAA.
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Yep. You can use expedite all day long but it doesn't replace an altitude restriction or a good vector. That is unless you're dealing with fighters, then expedite will work wonders.:)
 
Velocity173 said:
Yep. You can use expedite all day long but it doesn't replace an altitude restriction or a good vector. That is unless you're dealing with fighters, then expedite will work wonders.:)
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Yup. Another case of the last second panic button traffic alert. If you're ever uncomfortable about what you see, hear or feel developing with traffic calls ask to be vectored around that traffic.
 
Timbeck2 said:
No unless there was blatant pilot deviation. You can tell someone to descend, turn right, left etc but you can't control how fast they do it.
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I was on vacation between Fullerton and Yosemite at 10500 and my response to the transmission below was instant and huge:

ATC: "Tiger 12345, IMMEDIATE DESCENT any altitude ..."
 
danhagan said:
I was on vacation between Fullerton and Yosemite at 10500 and my response to the transmission below was instant and huge:

ATC: "Tiger 12345, IMMEDIATE DESCENT any altitude ..."
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Well "immediate" brings a whole different meaning to mix.

In layman's terms, expedite-"it would be nice if this guy hurried to alleviate the bind I just got myself in."

Immediately-"Oh $&@! what did I just do?":(
 
All losses of standard separation get reported. As do all near mid air collisions.
 
Brad Z said:
What you describe was not a loss-of-separation event. He may very well submit a controller equivalent of a ASRS report ("NASA report") as a potential safety issue. But it doesn't sound like anyone got numbers to call and no enforcement is likely (most because it doesn't sound like any rules were broken or ATC instructions ignored).

FWIW, you'll hear that alarm in the background all the time.
Click to expand...

I can't count how many times I've heard that going off in the background while talking to ATC
 
Mopauly said:
I can't count how many times I've heard that going off in the background while talking to ATC
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It's most likely not a conflict alert (CA) going off but a low altitude alert (MSAW). MSAW alerts go off far more than CA. A bit annoying when you have to listen to it all day.
 
Velocity173 said:
It's most likely not a conflict alert (CA) going off but a low altitude alert (MSAW). MSAW alerts go off far more than CA. A bit annoying when you have to listen to it all day.
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Agreed. Most of the time when I'm in the radar the MSAW goes off due to a flight of 4 standard F16s descending into adjacent airspace that you just took a point out on. But then again when they're flying at 350 and the data block shows XXX while they're in a descent, i should expect it lol


ATCS
 
MarkZ said:
All losses of standard separation get reported. As do all near mid air collisions.
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How is a loss of standard separation defined? (I am truly asking, I do not know)
Specifically for VFR aircraft.

We were flying into Dallas Bravo VFR for a pup on Sunday morning and got a traffic advisory that turned into a traffic alert and then a vector 15 degrees left. For the life of us (pun intended), we could not pick out the traffic that was climbing toward us fast. As I got the last alert and vector and started turning, we finally saw him, he was maybe 1/4 mile away, no factor. But the controller did not sound happy.
Did that get reported? Are those reports accessible to public? Where?

Thanks.
 
Did it get reported? Doubt it, think about it...the only people who know about the traffic alert is the controller, a couple of pilots and perhaps a supervisor. If controllers and/or supervisors took the time to make out a report every time a traffic alert was issued it would take attention away from their other duties such as I dunno.....separating aircraft and issuing safety advisories.

My answer was in reference to a traffic alert, not a loss of separation. Traffic alerts are issued to prevent a loss of separation.
 
To keep it simple, a loss of separation with any aircraft occurs when basic radar sep minima for IFR/IFR or IFR/VFR is compromised. In your case, when the CA goes off in the radar room, it automatically creates a notification for air traffic to check to see if indeed a loss did occur. in that process they'll listen to the tapes to see if there was a pilot deviation, or controller error that may have contributed to it. most of the time, when CA goes off a supervisor or whomever will come over and just see what's going on. a lot of times the CA will go off because one aircraft is descending and another is climbing and of course it doesn't know that they WILL be both separated by 1,000 feet because it's projecting the aircraft's rate of climb or descent. in your case, not knowing all the details, I'll say this.. it's tough on controllers to predict the intentions of a VFR aircraft that is not talking to ATC..thus, I'd rather talk to one than not. The facility and controller know about it, but I'm sure it didn't get submitted to any national level. these happen all day, everyday. If someone else knows, correct me if I'm wrong but these are not publicly accessible. I'm sure the FAA would rather keep people out of conversation about potential conflicts in the sky..with that being said, since it involved you (the pilot), I'm sure you could speak with someone about it at the facility.

The 7110.65 (our standards defined for controllers) state in class Bravo, VFR aircraft must be separated from all IFR/VFR aircraft which weigh 19,000 pounds or less by a minimum of 500 feet vertically or 1.5 laterally. Once more, I don't have all the details of your situation but the controller probably saw a VFR target out there below or above the Bravo and issued the traffic.

Class C, IFR/VFR separation standard is 500 feet vertically or target resolution aka if you're looking at a radar scope, don't let the targets touch.

The controller working you, I wouldn't doubt gave his absolute best. A plane is a plane no matter how big or small.

FYI: Most controllers are not happy when they have to give a traffic alert..trust me, we care about you guys up there.

Hope this helps!


ATCS
 
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