Do you know what 'useful' and 'payload' are?

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docmirror

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Apparently most aircraft owners and many pilots don't understand the difference in these terms.

I'm getting kind of tired seeing them used interchangeably and incorrectly. As in 'my plane has a useful load of xxx with full fuel'. Or some such drivel.
 
docmirror said:
Apparently most aircraft owners and many pilots don't understand the difference in these terms.

I'm getting kind of tired seeing them used interchangeably and incorrectly. As in 'my plane has a useful load of xxx with full fuel'. Or some such drivel.
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Then I'd say people aren't being well trained, Doc. Kind of like the "private pilot's license". That one drives me crazy, since in the US there ain't no such animal. Guess it goes along with the other dumbing down of America. :mad:
 
As I understand it:
Useful load = max gross - empty weight
Payload = max gross - weight of full fuel - empty weight

Do I pass?:dunno:
 
I've noticed that as well. I've inquired of payload on a person's airplane and would get a higher than expected number.
 
2256Q said:
Then I'd say people aren't being well trained, Doc. Kind of like the "private pilot's license". That one drives me crazy, since in the US there ain't no such animal. Guess it goes along with the other dumbing down of America. :mad:
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I understand your irritation, but it's just not the same. Even the FAA uses the term, for example from their website faa.gov:
What is the first step to becoming a pilot?

Decide what you want to fly. FAA’s rules for getting a pilot’s license (certificate) differ depending on the type of aircraft you fly. You can choose among airplanes, gyroplanes, helicopters, gliders, balloons, or airships. If you are interested in flying ultralight vehicles, you don’t need a pilot’s license.




Also the difference in useful and payload can lead to an overgross situation. The misuse of the term 'license' won't cause an accident, although it is irritating.
 
gprellwitz said:
As I understand it:
Useful load = max gross - empty weight
Payload = max gross - weight of full fuel - empty weight

Do I pass?:dunno:
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That's what I was taught many moons ago. Useful is the diff between empty and gross, payload is what's left after putting fuel in. Some say fuel and aircrew, but I think the first is correct.
 
docmirror said:
I understand your irritation, but it's just not the same. Even the FAA uses the term, for example from their website faa.gov:
What is the first step to becoming a pilot?

Decide what you want to fly. FAA’s rules for getting a pilot’s license (certificate) differ depending on the type of aircraft you fly. You can choose among airplanes, gyroplanes, helicopters, gliders, balloons, or airships. If you are interested in flying ultralight vehicles, you don’t need a pilot’s license.

Also the difference in useful and payload can lead to an overgross situation. The misuse of the term 'license' won't cause an accident, although it is irritating.
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Nobody I know ever accused the FAA of being overly intelligent, Doc. Still, you are basically right. My little irritating thorn isn't going to hurt anyone. It just seems somehow demeaning. Like my master's degree, it's a certificate of completion. If someone referred to it as my master's license, it would irritate.
 
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I think that most people understand the difference in the term (at least all the pilots I generally talk to do).

That said, often, the term "useful minus fuel" is used. I do not consider that *incorrect*, nor am I really going to get upset over them not saying 'payload'. The main thing is understand the difference of the two terms, which most any competent pilot does.
 
I get students started by thinking with the term "full fuel payload" because planes are usually put on the line with full fuel. Then further qualify it with all the factors like DA, aircraft rigging, pilot skill, etc.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
I get students started by thinking with the term "full fuel payload" because planes are usually put on the line with full fuel. Then further qualify it with all the factors like DA, aircraft rigging, pilot skill, etc.
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True, and it's probably more useful to know useful load and fuel capacity (and approximate cruise fuel burn) than payload.
 
Payload only counts when you are getting paid to carry something. It is what you can carry after you have added the weight of the fuel necessary to complete the flight, to the BOW(Basic Operating Weight of the aircraft). The BOW depends on the A/C manual definition. The BOW may or may not include crew. Useful load is the difference between the BOW and Max TOW, including fuel. If you ain't getting paid to carry something around, and you do, then it is useless load. Did I get it right?
 
Noah Werka said:
Payload only counts when you are getting paid to carry something. It is what you can carry after you have added the weight of the fuel necessary to complete the flight, to the BOW(Basic Operating Weight of the aircraft). The BOW depends on the A/C manual definition. The BOW may or may not include crew. Useful load is the difference between the BOW and Max TOW, including fuel. If you ain't getting paid to carry something around, and you do, then it is useless load. Did I get it right?
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What about the WOW?









:goofy:
 
Let me tell you, the LSA/ultralight crowd ain't getting the message. I've been shopping for a small plane for a while and I get answers all over the place. I've been reduced to asking 'what is the empty weight' and then go find the gross from published materials. The most often, and obvious mistake is to say "I have 557 useful load" to which I reply, 'well, with 15 gallons of fuel onboard, that only leaves 467 for people and bags'. Then they say, 'no, that's 557 after it's fueled'. Which is kind of what Jesse is saying. So, I consider the useful minus fuel to be one of the undefined, but correct statements. It would be better to just say 'payload'. :)
 
Unfortunately docmirror is correct. I've stopped going to the local ultralight strip (NE of here) because I know I will be called upon to assist at the wreck. To make matter worse, since most of the pilots are older, many are grossly overweight, and there is no way a Challenger can be safely loaded the way I see them. Can you say, "spar failure" in a steep turn (only one spar!)?

I also have to say that in an LSA, most pilots don't understand that due to lack of momentum you MUST shove the stick vigorously forward when you lose power or you will stall/spin/crash etc. In wind, an LSA is actually MORE demanding to fly than a part 23 a/c.

On the whole, LSA training is barely par, if that.
 
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Funny you should mention the Challenger. That's one of the models I'm looking at. Most sellers are NOT rated pilots. Some don't have any clue about aviation except they bought this cool little kite, flew it around for a while and now it's sitting in the barn(literally).

The Challenger has one of the better safety records, but you sure can snap one being ham-fisted. Also, being pusher config, many of the overgrown UL planes have interesting power-on pitch moments. So, a go-around can become exciting if you're not ready for the pitch down.

I don't think hardly any of the sellers know the empty weight of the plane. One ad I saw was very detailed, all the W&B info, CG calcs, fuel moment, etc. He was asking over $20k for his plane. No offense, but they're selling for around 10-15k, so maybe he'll have it for a while. That was the exception. The majority wouldn't know the payload, all they know is two seats, no waiting. I'm sure many of them go up over gross.
 
2256Q said:
Then I'd say people aren't being well trained, Doc. Kind of like the "private pilot's license". That one drives me crazy, since in the US there ain't no such animal. Guess it goes along with the other dumbing down of America. :mad:
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I'm sorry Ray, I don't want to aggravate you, but I always call mine a license. It isn't that I'm dumb, it is just that I think that Private Certificate sounds silly. You are probably technically correct, but it seems like something pretty insignificant to get very upset about. Now, an understanding of how much weight that your plane can get off the ground with, that is a serious consideration.

It is interesting though that Amy Lind Corbett, the FAA's New England Regional Administator has a private pilot license, and from her bio, she ain't dumb. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/arc/key_officials/corbett/
 
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How about the guy that says " My plane can haul 250 lbs over gross with no problems I've done it a thousand times":eek:
 
Maxmosbey said:
I'm sorry Ray, I don't want to aggravate you, but I always call mine a license. It isn't that I'm dumb, it is just that I think that Private Certificate sounds silly. You are probably technically correct, but it seems like something pretty insignificant to get very upset about. Now, an understanding of how much weight that your plane can get off the ground with, that is a serious consideration.

It is interesting though that Amy Lind Corbett, the FAA's New England Regional Administator has a private pilot license, and from her bio, she ain't dumb. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/arc/key_officials/corbett/
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I very obviously made an error by posting a personal dislike. As for calling anyone dumb, I look at America from the perspective of a man who has lived almost 7 decades and have seen much in that time. In raising my own children I could readily see the difference in the education my children were receiving as opposed to the educational system when I was a child. The bar had been lowered. So far as I can tell, it continues to be lowered. This is one of those 'who do you want to believe, me or your lying eyes' type things. Forgive me if I believe my eyes, as they have served me long and well.

To me, TO ME, calling my certificate a license is demeaning. A license is a tax you pay to be able to do something or the other. A certificate is earned, something that was precious enough to pursue, to sweat and perhaps even bleed for. If I have offended anyone, you have my apologies. It was not intentional. CAVU skies to you all.
 
2256Q said:
To me, TO ME, calling my certificate a license is demeaning. A license is a tax you pay to be able to do something or the other. A certificate is earned, something that was precious enough to pursue, to sweat and perhaps even bleed for. If I have offended anyone, you have my apologies. It was not intentional. CAVU skies to you all.
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You certainly didn't offend me in any way. Just throwing my two cents worth into the pot, and that's about all it's worth anyway. I've also heard people call it their ticket.
 
2256Q said:
That's what I was taught many moons ago. Useful is the diff between empty and gross, payload is what's left after putting fuel in. Some say fuel and aircrew, but I think the first is correct.
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Depends. On larger airplanes that might be flown by professional pilots/crews, one pilot to full crew are often excluded from the payload because they are considered part of the equipment. That lets the pax in the back who write the checks will know what they can take with them. I have seen this in specs for Pilatus on up.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Depends. On larger airplanes that might be flown by professional pilots/crews, one pilot to full crew are often excluded from the payload because they are considered part of the equipment. That lets the pax in the back who write the checks will know what they can take with them. I have seen this in specs for Pilatus on up.
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That is how it is on the airplanes I fly, only they call the empty weight with crew and fuel (and other fluids) the Basic Operating Weight (BOW). This can get interesting when you have crew of varying weights. Two small crewmembers can easily be 200 lbs less than two large crewmembers.
 
I know that the larger the plane, the more complex the calcs. Zero fuel weight, max gross TO weight, max landing weight, etc. My perspective is just the GA plane, and the LSA crowd. As for PAYload, I think that you use that for what you would have to pay another carrier to haul you around. However, that would not include the pilot, and he or she is part of the payload term in GA.

BTW, oil on many of the LSA crowd is part of the fuel, so I just left that in the useful amount.
 
Useful load: Number that aircraft manufacturers use to make it sound like their airplane carries more...

Seriously... There should be a better 'standard' when comparing aircraft. For example, max range when the seats are loaded vs. max number people the aircraft can carry when fueled up.
 
AirBaker said:
Useful load: Number that aircraft manufacturers use to make it sound like their airplane carries more...

Seriously... There should be a better 'standard' when comparing aircraft. For example, max range when the seats are loaded vs. max number people the aircraft can carry when fueled up.
Click to expand...

I like lbs. It is simple and lets you figure things out accurately. The above would be confusing as the weight of people can change and you might not want to haul people.
 
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