Do I really need this procedure turn?

olasek

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olasek
Say I am arriving at the airport almost directly from the North, do I have to execute this procedure turn in this otherwise very basic VOR approach? We are assuming no help from controllers, strictly pilot's self navigation. OED VOR is my (only) IAF.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1012/00251VA.PDF

When I tried this approach on my G1000 simulator - it clearly insisted on the PT.
00251VA.PDF
 
Yes. No way to ensure that you are within allowable distance from the VOR otherwise.
 
Generally when something is in bold and you are on your own.. you have to do it...and we are lacking any "NoPT" text anywhere north.
 
Clay, thanks. It does sound like a perfect 'legal' explanation.
 
You have to execute a procedure turn - but it does not have to be of a certain type - just has to be on the protected side.
 
The lowest altitude you can be enroute coming "almost directly from the north" is at 7,000 feet on V23-121. Without a procedure turn, you then have 5.8nm to drop 4320 feet. Even in a slow cat-A bird, that's over 1100 feet per minute. In fact, I think the reason this is a circling-only approach is that the descent gradient of 3265 feet / 5.8nm = 563 ft/nm from the FAF to runway 14 is too high to meet TERPS criteria for a straight-in approach, though someone with a better knowledge of those rules will have to verify.

So yes, you need the PT to lose altitude at a more reasonable rate, if nothing else.
 
Any time you're wondering whether or not you have to execute a published course reversal, just ask yourself these four questions:
  1. Am I on an "NoPT" route?
  2. Am I receiving "vectors to final"?
  3. Am I already established in holding at that fix at the depicted altitude?
  4. Am I cleared "straight in" by ATC?
If the answers are all "no," then you must execute the published course reversal.
 
Any time you're wondering whether or not you have to execute a published course reversal, just ask yourself these four questions:
  1. Am I on an "NoPT" route?
  2. Am I receiving "vectors to final"?
  3. Am I already established in holding at that fix at the depicted altitude?
  4. Am I cleared "straight in" by ATC?
If the answers are all "no," then you must execute the published course reversal.

Ron,

Can you be specific as to what you mean by saying "at that fix"?
 
One point of continuing confusion for this type of approach is what is meant by vectors to final. This is due to the turn at the FAF. For the controller, they may be using the definition of final found in the pilot/controller handbook, whereas the VTF function on the GNS430/530/G1000 will indicate the course being vectored to is the OED 342 degree radial (162 degree inbound).

Guidance on this topic is still being discussed by the FAA, but as of now it is sorely lacking.
 
you need the PT to lose altitude at a more reasonable rate, if nothing else.
This is excellent point too. So it makes me wonder what the approach would look like if again I was coming from the N and was receiving vectors to final. The controller would probably had me down to 4600 at some point, before that FAF.
 
One point of continuing confusion for this type of approach is what is meant by vectors to final. This is due to the turn at the FAF. For the controller, they may be using the definition of final found in the pilot/controller handbook, whereas the VTF function on the GNS430/530/G1000 will indicate the course being vectored to is the OED 342 degree radial (162 degree inbound).

Now that's something I didn't know and I wonder if it's the same with the GNS480 aka CNX-80? Also, if the controller vectors you to the actual FAS will the GPS sequence to the FAS when you're past the VOR?
 
Now that's something I didn't know and I wonder if it's the same with the GNS480 aka CNX-80? Also, if the controller vectors you to the actual FAS will the GPS sequence to the FAS when you're past the VOR?

The 480 behaves the same way (VTF generates an extension of the segment leading to the FAF). I was under the impression that this is exactly how ATC should handle any "vectors to final" guidance although I know some controllers don't understand this. I suppose that if ATC is providing vectors the plane must be above the MVA whether or not it's on a published course, but once they clear the plane for the approach (without restriction) the pilot should be navigating along a published portion of the approach being flown. If ATC instructs a pilot to expect VTF then turns them onto an extension of the final segment that's not aligned with the intermediate segment into the FAF I don't believe the controller could meet all the requirements they are required to follow such as ensuring the airplane is on a published segment prior to reaching a point 2 miles outside the FAF.

As to the question of a 480's behavior past the FAF when using VTF, regardless of how you arrive at the FAF, the 480 will sequence to the final segment as you pass the FAF.
 
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Can you be specific as to what you mean by saying "at that fix"?
You are in holding at the fix upon which the course reversal is based. For example...
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1012/05084VGA.PDF
...if you're in the depicted hold at PSK at the depicted altitude (3900 MSL) and you're cleared for the approach, you need not go out and do the PT -- you can simply proceed inbound the next time you cross PSK.
 
You are in holding at the fix upon which the course reversal is based. For example...
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1012/05084VGA.PDF
...if you're in the depicted hold at PSK at the depicted altitude (3900 MSL) and you're cleared for the approach, you need not go out and do the PT -- you can simply proceed inbound the next time you cross PSK.

Thanks, maybe I can learn something from this. What are you basing your point on, is it based on the form of the course reversal is up to the pilot as long as it is on the same side as the depicted procedure turn? Also, how would one arrive at 3900 feet inbound to the FAF when the hold is at 5000 feet, would the descent have to occur in the circuit prior to crossing the FAF inbound? I might have more questions, depending on your answers.
 
as long as it is on the same side as the depicted procedure turn?
Does it have to be on the same side on the PT? For example in the approach I cited at the top at KMFR the PT is on the opposite side of the holding pattern so it seems at least in this particular case you could do the course reversal on either side. And by course reversal I mean the 360 turn when you are arriving from the north and have to perform the PT.
 
I'm not sure what the requirements are, but, whoever made that approach might have known a reversal in a holding pattern AT THE FIX on the non protected side is safe, while doing it 7 miles from the fix might not be safe (hence protected versus non protected sides).

So if you are doing a course reversal that is not a holding pattern at the fix, i'm pretty sure thats what a procedure turn is, so I'm pretty certain it must be on the side depicted. If ATC is vectoring you, thats another story...
 
Thanks, maybe I can learn something from this. What are you basing your point on, is it based on the form of the course reversal is up to the pilot as long as it is on the same side as the depicted procedure turn?
No, it's based on what it says in the AIM.

Also, how would one arrive at 3900 feet inbound to the FAF when the hold is at 5000 feet, would the descent have to occur in the circuit prior to crossing the FAF inbound?
How one comes to be holding in that pattern at 3900 is irrelevant. If you are holding at the FAF on the intermediate segment course into the FAF at the depicted FAF altitude when you are cleared for the approach, you need not go out for the PT -- you can simple commence the final segment from the FAF when you next cross it in the hold.
 
Does it have to be on the same side on the PT?
The AIM makes no such distinction regarding executing an approach from a holding pattern at the FAF (or IF, if that's the fix upon which the PT is based). Whether ATC can hold you on that opposite side or not is another story entirely, as is how you would come to be in that hold in the Dublin approach above. All I'm saying is that if you are holding there, at the depicted fix crossing altitude, and you're cleared for the approach, you can complete the holding pattern, cross the fix, and continue down the approach.
 
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Thanks, maybe I can learn something from this. What are you basing your point on, is it based on the form of the course reversal is up to the pilot as long as it is on the same side as the depicted procedure turn? Also, how would one arrive at 3900 feet inbound to the FAF when the hold is at 5000 feet, would the descent have to occur in the circuit prior to crossing the FAF inbound? I might have more questions, depending on your answers.

Does it have to be on the same side on the PT? For example in the approach I cited at the top at KMFR the PT is on the opposite side of the holding pattern so it seems at least in this particular case you could do the course reversal on either side. And by course reversal I mean the 360 turn when you are arriving from the north and have to perform the PT.

The barbed wire simply indicates the direction of the procedure turn. The type of turn is up to you BUT IT MUST BE DONE ON THE INDICATED SIDE. The published missed approach hold on the other side is NOT an acceptable procedure turn and may bite you in the ass if you're not at the right altitude.

AIM 5-4-9 a.1
1. On U.S. Government charts, a barbed arrow indicates the maneuvering side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot (limited by the charted remain within xx NM distance). Some of the options are the 45 degree procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the teardrop procedure turn, or the 80 degree $ 260 degree course reversal. Racetrack entries should be conducted on the maneuvering side where the majority of protected airspace resides. If an entry places the pilot on the non-maneuvering side of the PT, correction to intercept the outbound course ensures remaining within protected airspace. Some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted.

 
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The barbed wire simply indicates the direction of the procedure turn. The type of turn is up to you BUT IT MUST BE DONE ON THE INDICATED SIDE. The published missed approach hold on the other side is NOT an acceptable procedure turn and may bite you in the ass if you're not at the right altitude.

AIM 5-4-9 a.1

I was working Boston Center on Christmas Eve many years ago. Snowing like crazy in upstate NY. Navajo comes up from LGA to Saranac Lake NY and requests the ILS. No recent weather is available. Roger, cleared for the ILS, report cancel this frequency or with FSS. Radar contact lost.

It's now midnight, 30 min later we start the radio search, FSS did not hear from him. Sent the State Police to check the airport. He walked the runway in the snow. He cold not drive on it.. it was 3ft deep, figured if he landed.. he was stuck on the runway.. no airplane.

3 days later a dog shows up at a local farm.. Family said it was on the plane. Never found the plane until 8 months later.

Determined he'd flown the PT on the wrong side.. smacked a mountain.. and the snow buried him and covered any scars in the trees. The approach and procedure turn are below radar coverage.
 
I was working Boston Center on Christmas Eve many years ago. Snowing like crazy in upstate NY. Navajo comes up from LGA to Saranac Lake NY and requests the ILS. No recent weather is available. Roger, cleared for the ILS, report cancel this frequency or with FSS. Radar contact lost.

It's now midnight, 30 min later we start the radio search, FSS did not hear from him. Sent the State Police to check the airport. He walked the runway in the snow. He cold not drive on it.. it was 3ft deep, figured if he landed.. he was stuck on the runway.. no airplane.

3 days later a dog shows up at a local farm.. Family said it was on the plane. Never found the plane until 8 months later.

Determined he'd flown the PT on the wrong side.. smacked a mountain.. and the snow buried him and covered any scars in the trees. The approach and procedure turn are below radar coverage.

Oops. :frown2:
 
No, it's based on what it says in the AIM.

How one comes to be holding in that pattern at 3900 is irrelevant. If you are holding at the FAF on the intermediate segment course into the FAF at the depicted FAF altitude when you are cleared for the approach, you need not go out for the PT -- you can simple commence the final segment from the FAF when you next cross it in the hold.

Ron,

I did a search on "Procedure Turn" in the AIM and could not find what you describe. Do you have a reference?
 
The published missed approach hold on the other side is NOT an acceptable procedure turn and may bite you in the ass if you're not at the right altitude.
OK, but you clearly misunderstood my original question as I was NOT talking about the actual procedure turn but the 360 degree turn that must be done prior to PT IF I were coming from the north and using the VOR as the IAF (without actually checking the plate and visualizing the flight route you miss the whole point). BTW I fired my G1000 sim and checked what it did. It performed the 360 deg turn on the side of the holding pattern (not on the side of the PT) which makes perfect sense. One thing it did not do - enter the holding pattern and simply complete the approach from that holding pattern, as Ron indicated above that could be a way ATC would direct me to do it, I was simply trying to see what automation would do if left alone.
 
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OK, but you clearly misunderstood my original question as I was NOT talking about the actual procedure turn but the 360 degree turn that must be done prior to PT IF I were coming from the north and using the VOR as the IAF (without actually checking the plate and visualizing the flight route you miss the whole point). BTW I fired my G1000 sim and checked what it did. It performed the 360 deg turn on the side of the holding pattern (not on the side of the PT) which makes perfect sense. One thing it did not do - enter the holding pattern and simply complete the approach from that holding pattern, as Ron indicated above that could be a way ATC would direct me to do it, I was simply trying to see what automation would do if left alone.

I can't see any reason why you'd want or need to do a 360 degree turn anywhere on this approach, coming from any direction including north. Perhaps you're referring to getting established outbound for the PT?

If that's the case I believe you could turn either way although a turn to the left would be better since the intermediate leg you're aiming for would be closer. Theoretically ATC should have assigned you an altitude high enough to make the turn with adequate terrain clearance. Of course if you were on your own altitude wise due to comm failure you might want to climb to the 10,700 MSA prior to reaching the VOR, just to be safe.

As to the "automation" I would expect an IFR GPS to turn left after passing the VOR in this case since that's the shorter turn and you aren't following any arrival procedure.
 
As to the "automation" I would expect an IFR GPS to turn left after passing the VOR in this case since that's the shorter turn and you aren't following any arrival procedure.
Like I had said above .. it turned right.
 
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I set up the GNS480 simulator for this and it turned right and it turned well before reaching OED.
Actually you are right, I set up my scenario again but with slightly different angle (just by a few degrees) coming from the 'North' and this time got completely different reaction - including a left turn and well before reaching OED. This can't be right - clearly this is where software limitations are quite obvious.
 
OK, but you clearly misunderstood my original question as I was NOT talking about the actual procedure turn but the 360 degree turn that must be done prior to PT IF I were coming from the north and using the VOR as the IAF
Did you mean a 180-degree turn? If so, if you're arriving from the north and not receiving vectors to final, you have no choice but to turn around to the north, perform a course reversal, and cross the VOR a second time headed south.

(without actually checking the plate and visualizing the flight route you miss the whole point). BTW I fired my G1000 sim and checked what it did. It performed the 360 deg turn on the side of the holding pattern (not on the side of the PT) which makes perfect sense.
I'm not that familiar with the G1000 logic, but neither the 430/530 nor any other approach GPS with which I am familiar would give you a 360-degree turn at the VOR. They would all have you turn around and establish yourself outbound on the 342 radial, perform a course reversal, and then reestablish yourself inbound on the 342 radial before sending you down the final segment from the VOR (now as the FAF) to the MAP. Obviously, since a racetrack reversal on the barbed side is legal, if you could execute a 360 to the left while descending from whatever altitude at which you initially crossed the VOR (probably at least 6300) to cross it the second time at 4600, you could do that, but I suspect it might be a bit of a steep dive to do so (probably at least 850 ft/min), and for that reason, I wouldn't encourage it.

One thing it did not do - enter the holding pattern and simply complete the approach from that holding pattern, as Ron indicated above that could be a way ATC would direct me to do it,
That's not exactly what I said. I was speaking in general terms, and only discussing what happens when you're held at the FAF on the inbound segment course. I have no idea if ATC could issue a hold on the inbound segment at 4600 feet on this particular approach, which is what it would take for you to skip the course reversal and second crossing of the FAF subsequent to receiving your approach clearance.

Where this becomes an issue is when you're held at the FAF on the inbound course, say, because they have already released someone departing that airport IFR and can't let you go past the FAF until they have that other aircraft in radar contact or otherwise assured separation. Then, when separation is assured, they'll clear you for the approach. If at that time they clear you for the approach, you cross the FAF once and only once again, as opposed to turning back into the FAF in the holding pattern, crossing it, and then going out for the PT to cross it a second time after receiving your approach clearance. Just remember that if you're not already established at the inbound crossing altitude (in this case, 4600), you are not "holding at the depicted altitude" and you will have to cross the VOR twice more, with a course reversal (of any type, including a short racetrack on the barbed side, which means if you were held "as published" you'd have to turn left instead of right when you hit the VOR for your altitude-losing racetrack) to lose the remaining altitude in between the two crossings.
 
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Actually you are right, I set up my scenario again but with slightly different angle (just by a few degrees) coming from the 'North' and this time got completely different reaction - including a left turn and well before reaching OED. This can't be right - clearly this is where software limitations are quite obvious.
What can't be right?

BTW, a holding pattern with the outbound leg on the "barbed" side is a perfectly legal (and safe) course reversal (procedure turn) when no specific PT is depicted on the approach chart. Of course that holding pattern should use the depicted intermediate segment course for the inbound heading, not the inbound course depicted for the missed approach hold.

And the terrain protected airspace surrounding the IAF should be sufficient for any standard entry into such a hold and therefore also sufficient to deal with a turn to the PT outbound heading in the closest direction. Also AFaIK, when flying with an IR GPS you are not required to pass directly over the IAF during your entry into the course reversal maneuver so an early turn outbound should be fine.
 
What can't be right?
Initiating turn a good 2-3 miles before reaching the VOR.

Ron, I agree with many of your points. Yes, my mistake, I meant 180 deg.
 
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Initiating turn a good 2-3 miles before reaching the VOR.

Ron, I agree with many of your points. Yes, my mistake, I meant 180 deg.
On the 480 @ 120 Kt GS (the computed turn radius varies with GS) the turn began at 1nm from the VOR and passed about 0.6 nm from the VOR at the closest point. This is all within allowable limits AFaIK since the IAF is not a "flyover" waypoint. Even starting the turn 2-3 miles from the VOR sounds OK as long as you managed to complete the reversal (back to inbound) within 10 nm of the VOR.
 
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Even starting the turn 2-3 miles from the VOR sounds OK
Doesn't sound OK to me at all and I do understand the concept of fly-by point. I have a nagging feeling such a stunt would not go well on someone's IFR checkride. Plus fly-by points were really invented for RNAV type approaches, I doubt the concept carries over to a VOR approach where VOR is de-facto a single navaid.
 
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Try section 5-4-9.

Ron,

Thanks. I think I found what you were describing in 5-4-9 a. 5. I read it briefly and I have some questions and or comments, but I don't have time this morning to put them together. I will get back on this later.
 
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