C
CParker
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Just curious - why has diesel powered singles not caught on? No ignition system, improved economy, perhaps a higher TBO?
Would there be a weight penalty?
Would there be a weight penalty?
Skip Miller
Final Approach
CParker said:
Weight has been a big factor over the years, but this problem is diminishing with the more modern deisel designs. Now a big problem is the expense to develop, certify, and get STC approvals for a new engine that has a very limited market. There are really very few potential sales for the manufacturer to amortize all the start up costs, so the cost per unit is high. Few people will pay the price so long as the old reliable Continental and Lycoming Avgas engines are available.
-Skip
Ken Ibold
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It has. In Europe.
To refit an existing airplane with the SMA diesel runs upward of $80K. The economics simply don't make sense.
And not enough new airplanes are sold to justify building the service/support network, as Diamond has learned. It's a catch-22. There aren't airplanes because there's no support network, and there's no support network because there aren't airplanes.
To refit an existing airplane with the SMA diesel runs upward of $80K. The economics simply don't make sense.
And not enough new airplanes are sold to justify building the service/support network, as Diamond has learned. It's a catch-22. There aren't airplanes because there's no support network, and there's no support network because there aren't airplanes.
Bonanza
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In England, and I think other parts of Europe too, there is a very high tax on Avgas which is considered to be a personal fuel and no tax on Jet A which is considered commercial. This makes Jet about half the price of Avgas and completely changes the economics of a diesel engine.Ken Ibold said:
I expect they are going to be a lot more popular over there than over here.
Stephen.
Bonanza said:
Yeah, it won't be long, 5 years and most new planes will sport diesels, unless something goes wrong with these early models to scare the market. Somebody posted awhile back an article that insinuated Daimler/Chrysler/Detroit Diesel/Isuzu was working on this issue. With the abundant technical and beaurocratic knowledge as well as deep financial resources to make this project happen, it could easily come to be, and I look forward to it. Now, if they'd come out with a nice replacement for an R-985, I'd be real happy
.mgkdrgn
Pre-takeoff checklist
"Will there be a weight penalty?"
You betcha ... mainly from the weight of all the $ that will be removed from your pocket. The economics just aren't there.
Take my example, 1968 Cherokee 180.
Cost to buy the current Diesel for that airframe exceeds the total value of the aircraft =with= a low time 100LL engine. Not to install it, or make all the necessary changes to the aircraft ... just to buy it.
And the TBO advantage? There is no TBO currently on a Diesel. There is a TBR .... that is, time to REPLACE. Yep, thats right, you don't overhaul it, you scrap it and start all over again ... after 1800 hours I think it is now.
Sorry, I'll pass.
You betcha ... mainly from the weight of all the $ that will be removed from your pocket. The economics just aren't there.
Take my example, 1968 Cherokee 180.
Cost to buy the current Diesel for that airframe exceeds the total value of the aircraft =with= a low time 100LL engine. Not to install it, or make all the necessary changes to the aircraft ... just to buy it.
And the TBO advantage? There is no TBO currently on a Diesel. There is a TBR .... that is, time to REPLACE. Yep, thats right, you don't overhaul it, you scrap it and start all over again ... after 1800 hours I think it is now.
Sorry, I'll pass.
mgkdrgn said:
As it stands right now, you are correct. The people who will see value in these engines is mostly the Patrol guys, the price of fuel just eats you alive. I don't see the current crop of diesels turning the market. It's gonna take someone like Daimler Chrysler to come in with all the money to do it right and the ability (and willingness) to produce these powerplants in numbers to produce an economy of scale. Luckily, these same engines can be marketed to the small boat and Genset markets, both of which would like lightweight engines of the same character as an aircraft would like. High even loads over an extended period of time, efficiently. There was allusion in another thread that this engine may currently be in the R&D phase. If that comes through, you can look at having reliable rebuildable diesel recip for a small plane competetively priced and omniserviceable. They may even get in the $12,000 range for a 200 hp turbo diesel, and since you can figure on twice to three times the torque over a 200hp gas engine, you could use that to replace a 285-300hp gasoline engine.
Dave Krall CFII
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Dave Krall CFII SEL SES, Cmcl HELI
What is a Genset, please ???
Henning said:
Dave Krall CFII said:
Sorry, Electrical Generators. There are a large number made every year, and in the boat market, the weight of the generator (everything for that matter) can be an issue. My point is it's a multi market product, and needs to be treated as such in order to scale up to more economical production numbers, otherwise the project is not likely to succeed.
Keith Lane
Pattern Altitude
GENerator SET
As in on a boat or mobile mounted equipment or RV.
As in on a boat or mobile mounted equipment or RV.
Tom-D
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Skip Miller said:
I believe that the date was 1929 when Packard produced a diesel Radial engine, they installed it on a Stinson SM-8 Detroiter. It set endurance records that stood for many years.
The weight was right, the power was right, the engine ran great, Do you know why it did not become a success?
The Exhaust smell made the Pax sick. Otherwise we would have had diesel engines long before now.
That Detroiter and it's diesel belonged to the Ford foundation for many years but in 1999 +- it was sold to a private individual.
Tom-D
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Henning said:
As long as your motor home/ RV /boat industry needs propane aboard, you won't see dual fuel systems like the stinky noisy diesel engine running in the RV park/marina at night.
Onan already has a great 15kw diesel gen/set, but you see very few installed in boats or MHs. you do see them on construction sites,
Miller manufacturers a great welder/ genset, but again limited usage/market.
I would much rather see the Alison C-20-B17 converted to run on Alcohol. Place that in a PA28R-201T and you would have a real go-er.
NC19143 said:
That would be a great engine to have. It would be real nice if someone would develope some radial diesels to replace the 985s, 1340, and 1820s. The economics of running turbines is hard in the ag market, the only time it really makes sense is when the local chem distributor or CO_OP owns the plane, and the maint and reliability issues of the old radials...well heck it's fine when you're doing only a few hundred acres a week, but when you get on a bug run or a govt contract, you fly all day and the mechanic works all night. Turbine you just put it to bed. Then the difference in the fuel cost.
The reality is, until we have a good diesel for planes, they will be harder and harder to operate for utility jobs where the margins are already thin and prices already high.
If I could have a 421 with a pair of god diesels, I'd consider starting a 135 service. With what's available now, I can't do it without working a lot harder than I need to to make the same amount of money. I need reliability and fuel economy. I need to use half the fuel, and I need to get my fuel at #1 diesel bulk rates for home, and Jet A while underway.