Detroit class B changes - briefing March 13

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

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FWIW...

Date: March 13th, 2014
Time: 6:30pm
Location:
Grosse Ile Township Board Room
Second Floor of Township Hall
9601 Groh Rd
Grosse Ile, MI 48138


Members from the Detroit Air Traffic Control facilities cordially invite you to attend the Detroit Class B Airspace briefings. The briefings will include an overview of the new airspace, frequencies associated with the different entry and exit areas, recommended flight routes through the airspace as well as times when access to certain areas will be limited due to high volumes of commercial traffic.
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The township hall is at the airport - north east corner of the ramp - if one would wish to fly in.
 

Attachments

  • Class B Airspace Flyer.pdf
    1.9 MB · Views: 95
Damn. That's the first time I got a good look at that. That is a big impact.
 
ChrisK said:
Damn. That's the first time I got a good look at that. That is a big impact.
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More and more like that. I still remember when Delta pushed ATC very hard for a large Class B around CVG & it got done ('stay clear of the Class Bravo') - now the traffic is a fraction of what it once was. But the Class B will remain.
 
Do you know who put out that chart and how accurate it is? The one that I saw last week on the FAA site had MUCH less detail.
 
I just saw this news yesterday on the bulletin board at Ray. Oye...
 
azure said:
Do you know who put out that chart and how accurate it is? The one that I saw last week on the FAA site had MUCH less detail.
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I got it from the airport manager at ONZ. I just sent an email asking about it.
 
Keep clear of the Bravo,seems to be all you hear lately. Don't know how we ever survived safely before all the airspace restrictions.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I got it from the airport manager at ONZ. I just sent an email asking about it.
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Thanks. I got it yesterday in an email from the president of the flying club I belong to. Since I'm educational secretary of the club, I knew about this and had already sent out a communique to the membership, but only had the crappy "official" version from the Federal Register. It would be nice to send out this one, but the prez didn't seem to know the source either.

My guess is it's from the TRACON, but I'd like to know for sure.
 
frfly172 said:
Keep clear of the Bravo,seems to be all you hear lately. Don't know how we ever survived safely before all the airspace restrictions.
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Around here (KCLE) it's a bit different. I'm almost always cleared into the Bravo. Then, as I get close, I'm almost always vectored either around or beneath it. If I ever actually do get into the Bravo it's generally just barely.
 
From the airport manager:
"The chart in the flyer is the one that I received via email from the Detroit TRACON supervisor."

But, looking closely, I have my doubts about the accuracy - both the new and old rings are supposed to be centered on the DXO VOR/DME, but in the drawing they old and new clearly do not have the same center...
Never mind. They apparently did move the center from I-DTW to DXO
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
But, looking closely, I have my doubts about the accuracy - both the new and old rings are supposed to be centered on the DXO VOR/DME, but in the drawing they old and new clearly do not have the same center...
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I noticed that too, but I don't completely agree. The one that confused me is the outer 30 nm ring vs. the Mode C veil. I am not sure what the veil is supposed to be centered on. The old rings are supposed to be centered on the I-DTW localizer antenna, which is probably offset significantly from the DXO VOR/DME.
 
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azure said:
I noticed that too, but I don't completely agree. The one that confused me is the outer 30 nm ring vs. the Mode C veil. I am not sure what the veil is supposed to be centered on. The old rings are supposed to be centered on the I-DTW localizer antenna, which is probably offset significantly from the DXO VOR/DME.
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Yes, I was just drawing on a chart - the old rings were centered on the I-DTW antenna off the end of 22L (I don't have lat/long) and the new ones as drawn are off te DXO VOR DME which appears to between the middle of 22L and 22R - about 1 1/2 nautical miles at 205 degrees (according to my measurements with a 3x5 card). When I draw using the lat/long given for DXO I intersect the YIP 4.4 mile ring at the correct lat/long. So, I suspect that the drawing previously attached is reasonably accurate given that the center has moved (which I had not realized before).
 
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It's hard to understand why Class B needs to be down to 6000MSL 30 NM away. The Class B is to protect arrivals to the primary Class B airport, not the sattelite airports. I don't know what airline or turbo jet operator wants to be down to 6000 30 NM out.

Every Class B in the lower 48 is under review and many have already published the change. And I believe every one has expanded. A big airspace grab.
 
I learned to fly in the MT rockies, the restrictions don't look as bad as the ones mother nature constructed out there. And I've never had any issue transitioning class B in Memphis, Seattle, Atlanta etc…

I'm going to duck and run after asking this but…. What's the big deal?
 
I've never had a problem with Boston or LA. But more and more are responding "remain clear of Class B" as in Las Vegas, Detroit and Chicago. It takes a little pushing and light "primary airport traffic" to get a Class B transition through LAS.
 
FWIW - some random notes.

A TRACON supervisor and controller were there with a canned presentation that covered a lot about how the big guys move in and out of the B airspace (Right now, they don't stay in the B - particularly to the north and it is a big problem for the controllers because they have to advise each and every airplane that they are leaving the Bravo).

Clearance into bravo - they thought that requests to enter Bravo run about 50/50 accept / deny. A lot depends on traffic, where you are going, etc. The airline traffic tends to run in batches - lots for 45 minutes to an hour, then dead for a similar time. During the push you are going to be denied, other times no problem. But, they emphasized that "Remain clear of Bravo" does not mean that they don't want to talk to you - just that they can't accommodate you in the Bravo. They said they prefer if you call when flying under the B so they know your intentions and can confirm your reported altitude - simplifies the advisories that they have to give to the airliners.

East - West transitions - the controllers are all familiar with an unpublished transition called "the cage" that puts you through a window almost over the center of DTW where there is very little traffic. You can improve your odds if you are departing ONZ by calling ahead (1 800 499 8181) with call sign, type aircraft, destination, altitude so they can get you in the system and assign a code ahead of time. From the west, you can arrange for the transition through Willow Run Tower. You need to be able to follow vector / altitude instructions.

Other areas of the B depend very much on if they are in the middle of a push or slack time.

It was pointed out that there is a real pinch point just north of ONZ where the B steps down to 2500, Grosse Ile pattern is at 1600, and Canada is just to the east. The controller suggestion was to contact approach on 134.3 to get a transition.

For any issues / comments relative to the Detroit B, they gave an email address for a single point of contact - drop me a note if you want it.
 
Why on Earth has a city that has shed it's population faster than a stripper sheds her clothes on a hot day need a giant Bravo with that kind of airspace grab?
 
steingar said:
Why on Earth has a city that has shed it's population faster than a stripper sheds her clothes on a hot day need a giant Bravo with that kind of airspace grab?
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Ever heard of Delta Airlines?
 
steingar said:
Why on Earth has a city that has shed it's population faster than a stripper sheds her clothes on a hot day need a giant Bravo with that kind of airspace grab?
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Per the TRACON guys (IIRC), DTW is something like the 12th busiest airport in the country. They can hit 120 landings per hour during a push and those aircraft are lining up for a final at 20+ miles out - the current class B extends about 18 miles to the NorthEast (they use a south flow almost all of the time). Not everyone who uses DTW lives inside the Detroit city limits (OK, this one was not per the TRACON guys).

They also claimed that those lines on the chart are "not brick walls".
 
I don't know the details obviously but if it turns out that the FAA is wanting these changes to keep increased airline traffic safely inside Bravo (including instrument approaches), then as inconvenient as it may be for the little guys we need to weigh the needs of the many (thousands of passengers on commercial flights) versus the needs of the few (the ever dwindling GA fleet).

That does seem like quite an excessive increase though. I would ask to see the data and analysis of current flight traffic if this is a move prompted by safety concerns.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
FWIW - some random notes.

A TRACON supervisor and controller were there with a canned presentation that covered a lot about how the big guys move in and out of the B airspace (Right now, they don't stay in the B - particularly to the north and it is a big problem for the controllers because they have to advise each and every airplane that they are leaving the Bravo).

Clearance into bravo - they thought that requests to enter Bravo run about 50/50 accept / deny. A lot depends on traffic, where you are going, etc. The airline traffic tends to run in batches - lots for 45 minutes to an hour, then dead for a similar time. During the push you are going to be denied, other times no problem. But, they emphasized that "Remain clear of Bravo" does not mean that they don't want to talk to you - just that they can't accommodate you in the Bravo. They said they prefer if you call when flying under the B so they know your intentions and can confirm your reported altitude - simplifies the advisories that they have to give to the airliners.

East - West transitions - the controllers are all familiar with an unpublished transition called "the cage" that puts you through a window almost over the center of DTW where there is very little traffic. You can improve your odds if you are departing ONZ by calling ahead (1 800 499 8181) with call sign, type aircraft, destination, altitude so they can get you in the system and assign a code ahead of time. From the west, you can arrange for the transition through Willow Run Tower. You need to be able to follow vector / altitude instructions.

Other areas of the B depend very much on if they are in the middle of a push or slack time.

It was pointed out that there is a real pinch point just north of ONZ where the B steps down to 2500, Grosse Ile pattern is at 1600, and Canada is just to the east. The controller suggestion was to contact approach on 134.3 to get a transition.

For any issues / comments relative to the Detroit B, they gave an email address for a single point of contact - drop me a note if you want it.
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I understand how talking helps them, but if you're not going get clearance, how does help you? The last time i called approach here for flight following, I was told to standby, and I never heard from them again. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours only works if both parties are willing to scratch.
 
steingar said:
Yeah, they're big hub is in Cincinnati (actually the airport is in Kentucky).
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Not any more.

ATC down there, who was so unfriendly to GA traffic in the past and got the airspace upgraded to Class B, is now almost hurting for traffic. AFAIK the traffic is back down to about what it was as a Class C thanks to Delta's cutbacks & the shutdown of the Comair terminal.
 
steingar said:
Yeah, they're big hub is in Cincinnati (actually the airport is in Kentucky).
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Wrong. Big hubs in this half of the country are DTW, ATL, MSP. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.
 
Lindberg said:
I understand how talking helps them, but if you're not going get clearance, how does help you? The last time i called approach here for flight following, I was told to standby, and I never heard from them again. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours only works if both parties are willing to scratch.
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IME it's rare for Detroit Approach to tell you to stand by and then never get back to you. If they do forget about me, I wait until there's a break and then call again. They have never denied me flight following, and considering how busy the area is even with GA traffic, I appreciate that service.

The 50% Bravo clearance rate sounds about right to me too. It's not at all rare to get clearance in. Just have a Plan B in case they can't accommodate you right now.
 
wsuffa said:
Not any more.

ATC down there, who was so unfriendly to GA traffic in the past and got the airspace upgraded to Class B, is now almost hurting for traffic. AFAIK the traffic is back down to about what it was as a Class C thanks to Delta's cutbacks & the shutdown of the Comair terminal.
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So much so that the last time I went through there I got a north south IFR clearance THROUGH the Bravo right over the top of the field. When did that ever happen in the past?
 
EdFred said:
So much so that the last time I went through there I got a north south IFR clearance THROUGH the Bravo right over the top of the field. When did that ever happen in the past?
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Not when I lived there. I was chatting sometime in the last couple of years with another pilot in the area who said they practically begged him to do practice ILS approaches at CVG. In the past, that never would have happened (personal experience).
 
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