Deregistered Aircraft

brien23

brien23

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Brien
Owner real sick deregistered N # dies now three x wives claim ownership of C-337 nobody has log books all claim ownership. A&P has not been paid now that the plane has been deregistered can the A&P put a lien on it or is he out of luck.:mad2:
 
brien23 said:
Owner real sick deregistered N # dies now three x wives claim ownership of C-337 nobody has log books all claim ownership. A&P has not been paid now that the plane has been deregistered can the A&P put a lien on it or is he out of luck.:mad2:
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First, where's the plane? If it's still in the A&P's possession, odds are he can just hold it under state mechanic's lien laws until paid, and if not paid within some time specified in the law, dispose of it without further permission from the owner, keeping the money owed (plus expenses) and returning the balance to the owner (or in this case, the owner's estate).

If not still in the A&P's possession, then was the aircraft actually deregistered, or did the registration just expire? If just expired, then he can file a lien with the FAA even though the aircraft does not have a current registration. To actually deregister an aircraft, you have to go through a special process with the FAA, but unless documentation was filed to change the ownership or it was reported destroyed or exported, it's probably still listed as owned by the last owner and a lien can be filed against it even though it can't legally be flown. You can check on this with the last N-number at the FAA Registry web site. Beyond that, it would be a matter of state law, and the A&P will need a local attorney to help sort it out.
 
brien23 said:
Owner real sick deregistered N # dies now three x wives claim ownership of C-337 nobody has log books all claim ownership. A&P has not been paid now that the plane has been deregistered can the A&P put a lien on it or is he out of luck.:mad2:
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And I'm sure in the time he owned it they wanted absolutely nothing to do with the plane..
 
Ron Levy said:
First, where's the plane? If it's still in the A&P's possession, odds are he can just hold it under state mechanic's lien laws until paid, and if not paid within some time specified in the law, dispose of it without further permission from the owner, keeping the money owed (plus expenses) and returning the balance to the owner (or in this case, the owner's estate).

If not still in the A&P's possession, then was the aircraft actually deregistered, or did the registration just expire? If just expired, then he can file a lien with the FAA even though the aircraft does not have a current registration. To actually deregister an aircraft, you have to go through a special process with the FAA, but unless documentation was filed to change the ownership or it was reported destroyed or exported, it's probably still listed as owned by the last owner and a lien can be filed against it even though it can't legally be flown. You can check on this with the last N-number at the FAA Registry web site. Beyond that, it would be a matter of state law, and the A&P will need a local attorney to help sort it out.
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That part is right.

It boils down to who the court gives the estate to. the mech will then have to file in civil court to collect any thing.

The only folks that will win anything is the lawyers
 
The plane is still out of annual, showed up on the Fed registry as deregistered, has not flown in five years . This is not a c-150 that you can reconstruct a log book it's a turbo C-337 just how much could this plane be worth. A&P is into it about 8K, my thought is to get out and walk away now before he looses any more money.
 
Women like shiny things. I see why they are ex-wives.
 
He can file a lien in state court using the A/C serial number I bet, even though it may be hard to register that lien with the FAA if it's truly de-registered.
 
brien23 said:
The plane is still out of annual, showed up on the Fed registry as deregistered, has not flown in five years . This is not a c-150 that you can reconstruct a log book it's a turbo C-337 just how much could this plane be worth. A&P is into it about 8K, my thought is to get out and walk away now before he looses any more money.
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POS 337, has sat 5 years, is in a legal fight between ex-wives. by the time the court settles it the A/C won't be worth salvage.

run, lick your wounds, and write it off on your taxes.

Next time choose your customers more wisely.
 
TMetzinger said:
He can file a lien in state court using the A/C serial number I bet, even though it may be hard to register that lien with the FAA if it's truly de-registered.
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Why would he?

by the time the court settles it, the FAA will have no record of it, then aircraft will be sold as junk and not worth paying the lien.

he might better offer the wives a deal and set the money in the court settlement. ( they probably don't know the real value anyway)
 
I agree, right it off, but still file a lien, you may or may not collect, but it shouldn't be too expensive to file.:yes: I bet all 3 ex's think it's worth what he told them it was! :rofl::rofl: Maybe the winner of those three can pay him and live off the proceeds of the sale for at least a couple weeks!:rolleyes:
Tom-D said:
POS 337, has sat 5 years, is in a legal fight between ex-wives. by the time the court settles it the A/C won't be worth salvage.

run, lick your wounds, and write it off on your taxes.

Next time choose your customers more wisely.
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Tom-D said:
Why would he?

by the time the court settles it, the FAA will have no record of it, then aircraft will be sold as junk and not worth paying the lien.

he might better offer the wives a deal and set the money in the court settlement. ( they probably don't know the real value anyway)
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Convince them that the first $8K is his, they can split the rest! :rofl:
 
N747JB said:
I agree, right it off, but still file a lien, you may or may not collect, but it shouldn't be too expensive to file.:yes: I bet all 3 ex's think it's worth what he told them it was! :rofl::rofl: Maybe the winner of those three can pay him and live off the proceeds of the sale for at least a couple weeks!:rolleyes:
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In cases like this the wives do not know how to sell an aircraft like this, it will set on some ramp until hell freezes over and not pay the ramp rental, then the airport sells it in a sealed bid sale with court title. and the lien never gets paid. Simply because the court will give position 1 to the airport.
 
Tom-D said:
That part is right.

It boils down to who the court gives the estate to. the mech will then have to file in civil court to collect any thing.

The only folks that will win anything is the lawyers
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Really?

Why couldn't the mechanic file a claim against the estate, which the estate would then have to pay out before distributing the estate to whomever the rightful heir ends up being.

Once the proceeds are paid out of the estate, the recipient would have no contract with the mechanic, and as such no obligation to pay.
 
Did we ever figure out where the airplane is? If the mechanic has it, he's in a lot better shape than if it's somewhere else. With possession I would have no issue putting a prop lock on it and moving it where it would at least be difficult to relocate or salvage. If it's on another airport, he released it without payment and that MAY hurt his chance of getting a mechanics lien in some states.;)
 
JeffDG said:
Really?

Why couldn't the mechanic file a claim against the estate, which the estate would then have to pay out before distributing the estate to whomever the rightful heir ends up being.

Once the proceeds are paid out of the estate, the recipient would have no contract with the mechanic, and as such no obligation to pay.
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And what paper would the mech have to show that they even have a unpaid bill?

A Work order ?? what would that have to say to stand up in court?

By the time you sort that all out it won't be worth chasing, you won't collect enough to pay your lawyer.
 
Tom-D said:
And what paper would the mech have to show that they even have a unpaid bill?

A Work order ?? what would that have to say to stand up in court?

By the time you sort that all out it won't be worth chasing, you won't collect enough to pay your lawyer.
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Can't disagree with any of that.

But as the mechanic, your claim is not against the wife (heir), but against the estate. Regardless of what documentation you have, you'll have precisely zero with the wife's signature on it.

Once the estate is distributed to the heirs, you're done. You have no privity of contract with any of the heirs (unless of course they were parties to the contract). If you have a claim, you must make it against the estate, or it will be forfeit.
 
Tom-D said:
In cases like this the wives do not know how to sell an aircraft like this, it will set on some ramp until hell freezes over and not pay the ramp rental, then the airport sells it in a sealed bid sale with court title. and the lien never gets paid. Simply because the court will give position 1 to the airport.
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Not if he has a prior lien.
 
JeffDG said:
Can't disagree with any of that.

But as the mechanic, your claim is not against the wife (heir), but against the estate. Regardless of what documentation you have, you'll have precisely zero with the wife's signature on it.

Once the estate is distributed to the heirs, you're done. You have no privity of contract with any of the heirs (unless of course they were parties to the contract). If you have a claim, you must make it against the estate, or it will be forfeit.
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Even when you get a judgment from the court, try to collect it. send it to collection? more people getting a slice of your judgement.
 
Tom-D said:
READ post 1, he doesn't have a prior lien. IMHO it isn't worth chasing after the fact.
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Prior to it going to court, I don't see where that has happened at this point. With the correct paperwork, he can also file the suit and get the judge to place a seizure order and take possession of the plane for $2500 in a loser pays costs situation.
 
Henning said:
Prior to it going to court, I don't see where that has happened at this point. With the correct paperwork, he can also file the suit and get the judge to place a seizure order and take possession of the plane for $2500 in a loser pays costs situation.
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That never happens, simply because the rent of ramp space has not been paid by the squabbling wives. the airport will not allow it to be removed from their possession. until the ramp rent is paid. and the POS 337 isn't worth what's due the airport.

Guess who has tried to buy several cheap airplanes.
 
These are things that are handled in probate all the time. Forget for a second that it is a 'deregistered' airplane. To the probate court, it is an asset with X as its value. No one but the feds care about registration, cause as the name implies, it is not an ownership document. The probate judge will look at the value of the asset, the cost of the outstanding work/storage/lien being due, and divide it up according to the will. In the absence of a will, the current Mrs Smith(widow) has first dibs(basically). I went through this with my dad, and probate is fairly straighforward. If money is owed at the time of the death, get a mech lien on it asap, and present your lien along with your invoices, shop records, etc to the probate court. The FAA has nothing to do with the plane as a financial instrument, just from the perspective of it's ability to use the NAS or not.
 
Tom-D said:
That never happens, simply because the rent of ramp space has not been paid by the squabbling wives. the airport will not allow it to be removed from their possession. until the ramp rent is paid. and the POS 337 isn't worth what's due the airport.

Guess who has tried to buy several cheap airplanes.
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Happens all the time, the $2500 pays for the USMS fees, they show up with guns and a custodian to take possession. Nobody argues for long with a court order and the Marshals.
 
Henning said:
Happens all the time, the $2500 pays for the USMS fees, they show up with guns and a custodian to take possession. Nobody argues for long with a court order and the Marshals.
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Don't get carried away Henning, we are talking about a Cessna 337 that has sat a long time unattended.

How do we know how many liens are already on it?

ain't worth messing with.

Even if you did get it, what would you do with it?
 
Tom-D said:
Don't get carried away Henning, we are talking about a Cessna 337 that has sat a long time unattended.

How do we know how many liens are already on it?

ain't worth messing with.

Even if you did get it, what would you do with it?
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Core on two TSIO 360s and props is going to be $15k+, instruments and everything else go on eBay, what doesn't sell goes to the scrapper.
 
Henning said:
Core on two TSIO 360s and props is going to be $15k+, instruments and everything else go on eBay, what doesn't sell goes to the scrapper.
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Dream on.
 
brien23 said:
The plane is still out of annual, showed up on the Fed registry as deregistered, has not flown in five years . This is not a c-150 that you can reconstruct a log book it's a turbo C-337 just how much could this plane be worth. A&P is into it about 8K, my thought is to get out and walk away now before he looses any more money.
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If it shows up in the FAA Registry, then it still exists in their eyes, and ownership is as shown. That means a lien can be filed against it (but that won't do much by itself unless the estate tries to sell it), and the money either collected from the owner's estate or a sale of the aircraft forced to pay the bill. The latter two options will probably require an attorney and action in state court -- possibly the probate division.
 
JeffDG said:
Once the estate is distributed to the heirs, you're done. You have no privity of contract with any of the heirs (unless of course they were parties to the contract).
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...except that the airplane has clearly not had its ownership transferred legally, making it targetable.
 
docmirror said:
These are things that are handled in probate all the time. Forget for a second that it is a 'deregistered' airplane. To the probate court, it is an asset with X as its value. No one but the feds care about registration, cause as the name implies, it is not an ownership document.
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Actually, by Federal law, ownership of an aircraft is as registered with the FAA. Its ownership cannot be transferred legally without registering that transfer with the FAA via a Bill of Sale. If the executor wanted to convert it to cash, s/he would have to issue a bill of sale to the buyer, and the buyer would have to file that Bill of Sale with the FAA to perfect ownership. Until that happens, the mechanic can file a lien on it with the FAA, and that lien would take precedence over a Bill of Sale filed later (there's case law on point). If that that airplane is still listed with the FAA as owned by the decedent (as it appears to be), the mechanic still has time to file that lien and then the executor cannot sell it without clearing that lien. Further, if someone bought that plane from the estate without filing a Bill of Sale with the FAA, the mechanic would be able to get a court to order its seizure and sale to cover the filed lien (although it might cost more than $8K to do all that), and the buyer will be unable to register it until that lien is cleared.
 
Never understood why a mechanic would go unpaid for five years without filing a lien? It costs little and should be done whenever the first demand for payment goes unpaid....and definitely before surrendering possession of the aircraft.
 
Solution 1: Mechanic interviews each of the three ex-wives. He auctions the lien to the highest bidder of the three. If that doesn't work, go to solution 2

Solution 2: He chooses the ex-wife he likes least, assigns the lien rights to her and tells her she owns the airplane. He explains that if he ever sees her again, his shop dog will chase her out of the premises with his full encouragement. He then goes to work on a paying customer's airplane.

Scott
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, by Federal law, ownership of an aircraft is as registered with the FAA. Its ownership cannot be transferred legally without registering that transfer with the FAA via a Bill of Sale. If the executor wanted to convert it to cash, s/he would have to issue a bill of sale to the buyer, and the buyer would have to file that Bill of Sale with the FAA to perfect ownership. Until that happens, the mechanic can file a lien on it with the FAA, and that lien would take precedence over a Bill of Sale filed later (there's case law on point). If that that airplane is still listed with the FAA as owned by the decedent (as it appears to be), the mechanic still has time to file that lien and then the executor cannot sell it without clearing that lien. Further, if someone bought that plane from the estate without filing a Bill of Sale with the FAA, the mechanic would be able to get a court to order its seizure and sale to cover the filed lien (although it might cost more than $8K to do all that), and the buyer will be unable to register it until that lien is cleared.
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What we know from this thread, we don't know who was the last legal owner, the estate might not legally own it.

you could spend the rest of your days chasing the title.
 
LDJones said:
Never understood why a mechanic would go unpaid for five years without filing a lien? It costs little and should be done whenever the first demand for payment goes unpaid....and definitely before surrendering possession of the aircraft.
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Maybe he found out he was 100 in line to file. :)
 
bartmc said:
Wouldn't the mechanic's bill just simply go through the probate process?
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Do we know he didn't have a valid work order and not just a hand shake deal. (Fix it, I'll pay ya later)
 
Tom-D said:
What we know from this thread, we don't know who was the last legal owner, the estate might not legally own it.
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We know it's still listed in the FAA registry, and there will be an owner's name there. That person is the legal owner of the plane unless someone has a Bill of Sale signed by that owner (or that owner's estate) which they have not yet filed (and in that case, a lien filed before the buyer files that Bill of Sale takes priority over the Bill of Sale).
 
Ron Levy said:
We know it's still listed in the FAA registry, and there will be an owner's name there. That person is the legal owner of the plane unless someone has a Bill of Sale signed by that owner (or that owner's estate) which they have not yet filed (and in that case, a lien filed before the buyer files that Bill of Sale takes priority over the Bill of Sale).
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No we don't know that the name in registry is the legal owner. We only know that is the last registered owner, that's big difference. aircraft change hands and the next owner does not register it, several cycles of that could cause you a real PITA.

You got proof from this thread that the estate really is the legal owner?
 
SoloEqs said:
This is a question for the A&P's lawyer, but my first guess is that he can put a lien on a plane whether or not the owner is still able to pass the medical.
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If the owner is dead I'm guessing the medical is deferred to the SI process… :goofy:
 
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