Delayed letdown ATC

Captain

Captain

Final Approach
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First Officer
This doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

Set up:

I'm going to an airport with a line of weather betwixt me and the airport. The airport is clear but the line is near'ish to the field. As an example, I'm coming from Boston to Chicago and the line is over the lake. KORD is reporting clear skies with CB's to the east.

The line goes from KMSY to SFWS (Santas Freaking WorkShop) so no going around. Tops are in the 40's but spaced are tops in the 20's and 30's so I could easily clear them.

Problem:

What I want to do is stay in the flight levels until I clear them and then descend. I'd have no problem flying over my destination at FL370 and then letting down in the clear.

But ATC does not understand this. It's happened several times to me and I can never seem to articulate what I want to ATC. The closest I came was in Dallas when I was given 'pilot discretion' to 4,000 after much asking and explaining what I wanted only to get 'tone' from approach when they turned me to the marker at 9,000 and I said I needed vectors to get lower. "well, you WERE given discretion to 4, weren't you???" was her response.

Anyway, on the rare times it makes sense to let down on the other side of your destination ATC seems unable to comply or understand the idea behind it. They always want to simply descend me into the crap to try to pick my way through cells, all the while giving me heavy return advisories.

I know it can be done. If I were flying from Boston to Minniapolis and diverted to Chicago just West of KORD they'd have no problem dropping me down into the flow of arrivals from the West.

Can someone explain why this is such a problem or suggest better phraseology to communicate my intention to ATC? I've tried asking to over fly the field and approach from the other side due to weather but it hasn't helped.

Thanks,
 
Because, the system as currently structured is inflexible. It is complex and based on delegated sectors of airspace with rigid boundaries and procedures. Airspace is underutilized and will remain so until the system is completely revamped by automation.
 
I just file for somewhere beyond and then change the destination. When they ask why I tell them the pax needs to pee.
 
Wayne, that's creative, but I could see it leading to questions if you choose a high profile destination at which to 'pee'.

How about asking for a clearance to a VOR east of the field that's in the clear? Then, pick up another clearance (either through negotiation, or by filing one) to the ultimate destination from the VOR.
 
"unable due to weather. Request pilot's discretion." I can't imagine ATC forcing you to descend through hazardous weather.

Or if you already know you'll need to descend on the other side of the field, change your route to indicate some fix or NAVAID on the other side that will give to plenty of time to descend.
 
wabower said:
I just file for somewhere beyond and then change the destination. When they ask why I tell them the pax needs to pee.
Click to expand...

I had that really happen over ALS, and got like a four or five question grilling from ZDV about what was triggering my deviation. My next transmission would have been "Pee! She has to pee, over!"

I'd only bothered to tell them as a courtesy so when they saw my target descending they'd know why. I was VFR.

I suspect their new procedures for checking to see if Cessnas are terrorizing Alamosa, CO weren't written with the thought of non-lavatory equipped aircraft wandering the skies. LOL. The horrors!

I was VFR on Flight Following in the middle of nowhere. Let's see... If I were a Cessna planning on terrorizing the good residents of that high value target of Alamosa, would I even be participating in FF? ROFL.

Freaking morons who come up with this stuff... Stupidity.
 
It's not an "in-yo-face" deal, they simply have LOA's and other procedures in place with which they must comply. I'm not constrained by those documents, some of which can make my trips unpleasant, like being held at 8k' across DFW to damn-near Mineral Wells because of the piston/turboprop/jet route structure. Sometimes I can do something about it, sometimes not.

Have you ever noticed how many pro pilots cancel IFR flight plans when approaching the B in VMC, then proceed across a metro area talking to approach as opposed to flying an extra 50 miles around the B? Part of it is knowing the territory, part is knowing how the game is played.


coma24 said:
Wayne, that's creative, but I could see it leading to questions if you choose a high profile destination at which to 'pee'.

How about asking for a clearance to a VOR east of the field that's in the clear? Then, pick up another clearance (either through negotiation, or by filing one) to the ultimate destination from the VOR.
Click to expand...
 
Velocity173 said:
"unable due to weather. Request pilot's discretion." I can't imagine ATC forcing you to descend through hazardous weather.

Or if you already know you'll need to descend on the other side of the field, change your route to indicate some fix or NAVAID on the other side that will give to plenty of time to descend.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
Velocity173 said:
"unable due to weather. Request pilot's discretion." I can't imagine ATC forcing you to descend through hazardous weather.

Or if you already know you'll need to descend on the other side of the field, change your route to indicate some fix or NAVAID on the other side that will give to plenty of time to descend.
Click to expand...

Typically it goes like this;

ATC: "Descend and maintain 14,000"
Me: "Center, there's a line ahead we'd like to clear before starting down"
ATC: "Okay, you can stay there but I'm going to have to have you at 14,000 80 miles East of XYZ"
Me: "Yeah, that still going to put us down in it"
ATC: "well, I have to get you under KABC's arrival/departure corridor"


Add to this the freq is busy because it's usually a class B airport involved and there is weather. I try to stay high and offer to overfly the field at present altitude and get pushed down anyway. I've not tried saying 'unable' because I was able. I can prove that as I haven't been destroyed yet with hail or lightening. Obviously I'm not going to get vectored into level five storms. I'm not going to pull the 'unable' card until it affects safety. Not comfort or convienance.

But I would much prefer to not deal with it and just coast on by above the mess. This request seems foriegn to them and I can never get it approved.
 
What is wrong with requesting what you want. Maybe, "N12345 can't descend from FL 260 until past ORD due to the line of storms east of the airport. Will need to turn around after passing ORD to descend."
 
Velocity173 said:
"unable due to weather. Request pilot's discretion." I can't imagine ATC forcing you to descend through hazardous weather.
Click to expand...

Ever been to Chicagoland?

I was headed into ARR one night (fortunately ATC put me between layers - my altitude was 0 C.). They put another southbound aircraft IN a sub-freezing layer above me and he reported rime accumulation. The conversation went like this:

Nxxxx: "we'll need another altitude, we're picking up rime"
Chicago Approach: "No other altitudes available, that's why I put you there"
Nxxxx: "Well, we're in a layer and picking up rime ice"
Chicago Approach: "Sorry, but I had no where else to put you. Last guy through there reported same, but I should be able to get you higher in about 10 miles"
 
Velocity173 said:
"unable due to weather. Request pilot's discretion." I can't imagine ATC forcing you to descend through hazardous weather.
Click to expand...
I can imagine them trying, but I can't imagine me doing it.

Had NY Approach one time try to drop me from 8000 to their preferred 6000 on V16 westbound over Long Island with the tops 6500-7000 (clear above), bases 2500, and ice in the clouds. Weather was clear further down V16 so descending to destination was not an issue, but I could not take the ice between where I was and where it ended. "Unable due to icing below." Took a bit of discussion after that, but they finally agreed to 8000.

In retrospect, I could have requested VFR on top and gone to 8500, but I didn't think of it at the time.

Had I been landing in the NY area, things might not have worked as well, but I would not have been planning to descend through that ice, and if I lost my engine, I would not have been in it that long, anyway, before breaking out below.
 
Ron Levy said:
I can imagine them trying, but I can't imagine me doing it.

Had NY Approach one time try to drop me from 8000 to their preferred 6000 on V16 westbound over Long Island with the tops 6500-7000 (clear above), bases 2500, and ice in the clouds. Weather was clear further down V16 so descending to destination was not an issue, but I could not take the ice between where I was and where it ended. "Unable due to icing below." Took a bit of discussion after that, but they finally agreed to 8000.

In retrospect, I could have requested VFR on top and gone to 8500, but I didn't think of it at the time.

Had I been landing in the NY area, things might not have worked as well, but I would not have been planning to descend through that ice, and if I lost my engine, I would not have been in it that long, anyway, before breaking out below.
Click to expand...

Yeah I know a guy with a late 70's Grumman Tiger who got vectored right into a thunderstorm. Now he has hail dings all over it. It was a beautiful Tiger with new paint, new interior, new panel, low eng time and Lopresti cowling. No way I'd take an ATC instruction that's going to sacrific safety or even the resale value in my plane. This guy still says he won't take any offers below 125 grand but with hail damage, good luck.
 
Hear you loud and clear and been there. I've always been able to work something out in the Dallas area where I'm based. Hasn't been during the big push. I've tried to give an alternative: NXXX needs to stay at FLXXX for XXX more miles or an intersection on an arrival, or NXXX needs right or left XXX if that was an option (sounds like it wasn't in your case). If folks in front of you haven't been asking for that, it will be more difficult to get. If everyone diverts, much easier as you know.

Good luck.

Dave
 
The thing that immediately occurred to me was "unable due to convective activity".
But you say you don't want to pull that string until you really need it, i.e. for safety.

If they are unwilling to cooperate, that may just be what it is. You are asking for a little help, they are saying unable. You can only take control by trumping their unable. Given Chicago and NY traffic, their unable may be quite reasonable. Your assessment that it is only a comfort issue rather than safety is quite reasonable too.

In a less demanding environment, you'd probably be able to get the help. Even in busy NY, I find that canceling IFR can open a lot of doors. But that may not be an option for your operation.

Bill "dreaming of needing to stay in the flight levels until over the weather" Watson
 
wsuffa said:
Ever been to Chicagoland?

I was headed into ARR one night (fortunately ATC put me between layers - my altitude was 0 C.). They put another southbound aircraft IN a sub-freezing layer above me and he reported rime accumulation. The conversation went like this:

Nxxxx: "we'll need another altitude, we're picking up rime"
Chicago Approach: "No other altitudes available, that's why I put you there"
Nxxxx: "Well, we're in a layer and picking up rime ice"
Chicago Approach: "Sorry, but I had no where else to put you. Last guy through there reported same, but I should be able to get you higher in about 10 miles"
Click to expand...

"Nxxx is declaring an emergency...."

Bob Gardner
 
Velocity173 said:
"unable due to weather. Request pilot's discretion." I can't imagine ATC forcing you to descend through hazardous weather.
Click to expand...
Well, it's real. IFR eastbound over central I was just on top of a layer from which I emerged about 20 miles back, accumulating moderate (not light) mixed ice. On top at 17K, the deck was climbing. I asked x 3 for FL 210, was ignored once, denied twice. Then he called for me to descend to 15K.

"NY approach, for the tapes, that action is counter to aviation safety. I have been asking for higher and you have my report of moderate mixed ice at 15K. The deck is now less than 200 feet below me. If I need to use the E word, I will"

"37XXX, unable, Descend maintain 15,000"

"New York, N 32755 declares an emergency we are climbing to FL 190."
ATC was replaced by a much more mature sounding voice, requested 20 left for traffic, and that was all.

They sit all nice and toasty in their chairs. Don't create an emergency, but don't tolerate their comfort. He's eating a donut. You are eating your survival.
 
How about requesting the BENKY ONE ARRIVAL with transition from IRK. Looks like it will do what you want AND ATC should be able to understand you.
 
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