alfadog
Final Approach
Sounds inappropriate. You did the right thing addressing it with him. And little of value was lost.
Sounds inappropriate. You did the right thing addressing it with him. And little of value was lost.
Blackhawk
Pre-takeoff checklist
I've told the story before of trying to teach my wife.
I was a IP while she was in flight school. She did a branch transfer after we got married.
Now for the uninitiated the military way of teaching that I was taught was to yell. If the student still didn't get it try belittling them. If they still did not get it whack them in the helmet with your pointer (that's why we wore flight helmets).
I was not my wife's IP as I taught an aircraft qualification course, but I decided to smuggle her into the simulaotor to give her pointers. She would be number 1 in her class if it killed me... Or if she killed me.
After a few minutes of her flying with me whacking gauges with my pointer she reached over, hit the freeze button, looked at me with those pretty blue eyes, and said in her sweetest southern drawl, "Hon, we got two options here. Either you put that pointer away or I will shove it so far up your butt it will poke out your nose." she then took the sim off freeze and started "flying" again. I put the pointer away and never tried to teach her again.
Funny, I get the same look from my teenage daughter (except she has my green eyes), as I try to teach her to drive.
I was a IP while she was in flight school. She did a branch transfer after we got married.
Now for the uninitiated the military way of teaching that I was taught was to yell. If the student still didn't get it try belittling them. If they still did not get it whack them in the helmet with your pointer (that's why we wore flight helmets).
I was not my wife's IP as I taught an aircraft qualification course, but I decided to smuggle her into the simulaotor to give her pointers. She would be number 1 in her class if it killed me... Or if she killed me.
After a few minutes of her flying with me whacking gauges with my pointer she reached over, hit the freeze button, looked at me with those pretty blue eyes, and said in her sweetest southern drawl, "Hon, we got two options here. Either you put that pointer away or I will shove it so far up your butt it will poke out your nose." she then took the sim off freeze and started "flying" again. I put the pointer away and never tried to teach her again.
Funny, I get the same look from my teenage daughter (except she has my green eyes), as I try to teach her to drive.
alfadog
Final Approach
Put the pointer away.
tmyers
En-Route
Savy woman you have there!!!!
Concorde
Pre-takeoff checklist
26 posts in 7 years ?
U
Unregistered
Guest
I've dated two of my students. Why not? As long as you don't let it interfere with professional conduct while training it is not a problem.
alfadog
Final Approach
The problem is when someone thinks that sexual advances are coming from someone in a position of power over them. Obviously, not as clear-cut an issue in flight instruction as in perhaps the workplace but still can be a factor. Best to date another CFI's students, IMO. If that doesn't work for you then that should tell you something.
Last edited:
hook_dupin
Pre-takeoff checklist
Checklists don't have to be read... They can be memorized when they're time-critical. Knock on wood: so far, none of my students has ever had a gear-up landing.
Gerhardt
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2006
- Messages
- 4,534
- Display Name
Display name:
Gerhardt
Every CFI I've ever had made me use a paper checklist for everything from the pre-flight to taxiing back to the ramp.
Outside of military or job related instruction, in what bizarro world does a CFI have any power over you? They are in your employment, you hold all the power.
As a check list, or as a 'do list'? You should only be using the list to check that you didn't miss any items. The accomplishment of the items should have been accomplished through your flow from memory.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
GUMPS is a acronym, not a checklist, genius.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
If you expand it (as appropriate) to BCGUMPS, it bears a strong resemblance to the pre-landing checklist on quite a lot of airplanes.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Before Christ.
Everyone prays before his landings.
I've never heard of the B or C either.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
I translate GUMPS as:
G: Gear Down
U: Undercarriage down and locked
M: Make Sure the Gear's down
P: Put the damn gear down
S: Stupid!
G: Gear Down
U: Undercarriage down and locked
M: Make Sure the Gear's down
P: Put the damn gear down
S: Stupid!
steingar
Taxi to Parking
A checklist is something in front of you that you check off. Since your memory isn't in front of you it isn't a checklist, just a series of memorized items which you may or may not miss. I don't look at checklists when I fly, I'm too busy with my hands full of airplane. If you're using them while you're in the air I hope you do it far from me.
How do you check someone's mental checklist? Perhaps you can have them rattle it off, but then it isn't a checklist, just a recitation.
And like I said, the day the CFI hits me will be last day he or she flies with me and might result in reciprocation. It is just juvenile behavior and teaches nothing.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
Boost pump and carb heat. You could argue that the "G" takes care of the boost pump, but I've always used that for fuel level and selector. And since I learned on a carbed 172 (like a lot of people), I need the extra reminder when I'm in something that needs a boost pump like a PA28.
It still leaves off cowl flaps, but that's where a flow comes in. I guess it could be BCCGUMPS….
Last edited:
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's great if you have a multi-pilot crew... Not so good in some situations if you're the only pilot aboard.
It's an acronym for a checklist. You must really enjoy picking nits.
Especially since it allows a pilot to use a pre-landing checklist as they should, while keeping their eyes outside which they also should (as you stated).If you want to get so technical - I've never seen anyone actually check anything off, since they'd have to make a new copy of the checklist for each flight/use.
So, I'd say that for the purposes of flying, a "checklist" is something that allows the pilot to ensure that all pertinent actions have been completed for a particular phase of flight.
There are memory techniques that allow a checklist as defined above to be something memorized.
I use several different types of checklists:
1) Paper. Good for when you are able to look inside the plane without risk, such as for an After Landing checklist - Pull off the runway, cross the hold short line, stop and run the checklist.
2) Acronyms. GUMPS and PAIN CALL are the ones I use most often. They're useful when you're in the air and need to ensure you complete several items but you may not want to look in the cockpit or have yet another piece of paper floating around at that particular moment.
3) Memorized lists. These are harder to get right in the first place, but the rhythm can be used to ensure you don't miss anything. The ones I use are useful for all the planes I fly on a regular basis, though that means that some items are extraneous on some planes. For example, my cruise checklist: Trim, time, lights, pump, power, mixture, compass, cowl flaps. In the Mooney the pump isn't used except for priming, I have a slaved HSI, and there are no cowl flaps so I simply skip those items on that plane.
Those are all checklists. Some allow you to keep your head outside and/or your cockpit better organized. No sense picking nits over what a checklist is.
Try using trim.
How'd you pass your private pilot checkride without using any checklists?
As long as they can rattle it off consistently, it works as a checklist. Master, beacon, mixture, tank, pump, prime, clear, start, oil pressure, lean.
On that, we can agree.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
CCGUMPS is a variation that I've learned.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
My boost boost pump is a Switch, right next to the landing light switches and carb heat isn't really applicable on fuel injected plane - or a requirement my Lycosaurus.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Use them religiously on the ground, but not in the air. I'm sorry, a memorized set of tasks and a checklist are wholly different things in the book of Steingar. they were first put into use when the first B-17 crashed on take-off because the gust lock wasn't removed. Those pilots had mental checklists too, lot of good it did them.
You can forget anything you've memorized. No doubt all those guys who landed gear up had pre-landing checklists. You can also miss something on paper, which is why a real checklist (where you check off items as you do them) is really invaluable, and these days not at all difficult to produce.
If I consistently had a copilot I might consider using them in the air. Never flying solo. Always on the ground.
Technically, it's a mnemonic for a checklist, genius:
Gas
Undercarriage
Mixture
Prop/Pump
Safety
Quite widely used for decades. Feel free to adapt as appropriate. It helps run a checklist of important items without distracting the pilot. Perhaps some instruction could help.
Gee, I hope you seek out further training so you don't need to be so overwhelmed by that Cherokee. The FAA believes you should be capable of doing both, and demonstrate it on any check ride....or fail.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
My students need to do certain things from memory, then when the situation permits, they must verify with a checklist.
That checklist may be on a card, in a notebook, or printed on the panel or visors (like some airplanes), but it MUST be somewhere else than in their head.
The whole POINT of a checklist is to have something to doublecheck your brain.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
If the FAA really believes that you should have your head in a checklist while in the pattern with other aircraft than they are in worse shape than I could have ever imagined. I suspect strongly that you believe the FAA believes this, and that you are the one in need of remedial training before one of your students has a midair because his head was in a checklist.
Tim has the right of it. A memorized series of items is just that. A checklist is so you have another source. But I disagree with the CFIs, I am not using one in the pattern where there are other aircraft, and the only impetus that would cause me to use one in flight is an in-air emergency, though I think I have those memorized as well. I do think that once I've established best glide and tried an engine restart that a checklist would be a good idea to make certain that in my adrenaline rush I haven't forgot anything. That's assuming I have some altitude below me and lots of reasonable places to land.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
To see where the FAA thinks you should be reading a list, go read the practical test standards and pay attention to where it calls for checklists in the various tasks.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
steingar
Taxi to Parking
That's a good idea Tim, I will do that as soon as I am able. I can assure you that at no time in my training or my forty or so hours of duel was I ever asked to use a written checklist while in the pattern. Indeed I've never been asked to use a checklist for any phase of flight except engine start and run-up. Perhaps I'm the odd one.
ClimbnSink
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2007
- Messages
- 6,997
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg
I understand where you are coming from and agree with you, but yeah you are the odd one. Pilots use paper checklists in flight even in Cherokees. Not new, probably comes from the pilot mills trying to make mini 121 operating units.
Funny thing is Soviet SOP was memorization of checklists(yes in jets) and performing them from memory. So yeah there are other ways but don't tell these guys.
Your reading comprehension is quite low, isn't it? Try re-reading the discussion of GUMPS above. It addresses your concern, and the FAA's concern...and has been used effectively for many decades.
I'm not sure I would model my practices after the Soviets...
http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?id=1120920
Perhaps effective use of checklists might help them.
Aztec Driver
Line Up and Wait
Try getting through a part 135 single pilot checkride without having, not only a written checklist, but an "approved" written checklist. And if you do not at least glance at it during transitional phases of flight, you will be reminded of it at the debrief. Even if you have a good flow pattern, and have all things memorized.
PilotReporter
Filing Flight Plan
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
- Messages
- 1
- Display Name
Display name:
Brooke
Hello,
My name is Brooke Hil, and I am a reporter for a major media outlet based in New York City.
We're looking to do a story on pilots who have at times become disgruntled or frustrated with the flying process/corporate airline structure/etc and would be willing to be interviewed about their experience.
If interested, please email me directly at BrookeHil87@gmail.com. Thank you!
Best Regards,
Brooke Hil
My name is Brooke Hil, and I am a reporter for a major media outlet based in New York City.
We're looking to do a story on pilots who have at times become disgruntled or frustrated with the flying process/corporate airline structure/etc and would be willing to be interviewed about their experience.
If interested, please email me directly at BrookeHil87@gmail.com. Thank you!
Best Regards,
Brooke Hil
Brad Z
Final Approach
Dear Brooke,
You seem to be a very nice reporter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3bNlrroFd4) but please stop spamming the board with the same message over and over. Stick around and chat if you want people to talk to you. Are you truly a PilotReporter?
Last edited:
Anymouse
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2007
- Messages
- 3,167
- Location
- Clinton, AR (Sometimes)
- Display Name
Display name:
Total Stud Bush Pilot
Seriously!
She could have simply created a thread and posted just once and had a single source for her inquiries.