Dated Interior - Someone tell me what I have - First steps?

Saintroad

Saintroad

Filing Flight Plan
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Aug 30, 2016
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Tampa, FL
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Saintroad
I am a student pilot with 50 hours and nearing my solo and should have my PPL by years end. (This is over a long period of time --- mostly TW aircraft first 30 hours and 20 hours on PA-28 models over the last couple of months)

To this end, I was considering a rather nominal investment into a low-wing Piper starter plane to keep in the family and use for training other family members and just keep this vintage craft running and out of the boneyard.

I am looking at a rather cosmetically challenged (lol) interior on this 1965 PA-28 160 plane and need to know first off what avionics are installed, how much of this is original (if any) and what any of you would do first to clean up the panel make it more usable and substantially cleaner. I don't even know what the 4 position knob with the EVEN/ODD reminder even does. Not familiar with some of these pieces in this setup.

Would rather keep the cost minimal for starters, but I want a clean aircraft.

Can I install later model Piper yokes and sort out the PTT dilemma with only having one side (left PIC) installed? Rather have buttons built into the yokes and run neatly to the radio(s) --- It just looks very worn and dated.

Why is there no base plate on the fuel selector?

This plane will be mostly used for hours building and training --- would like to keep her flying and maintain the vintage look, but properly going to eventually go with a tan interior with new carpet and seats to better match her vintage look -----

Thoughts?
IMG_2081.jpg

IMG_2083.jpg
 
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Saintroad said:
I am a student pilot with 50 hours and nearing my solo and should have my PPL by years end.
To this end, I was considering a rather nominal investment into a starter plane to keep in the family and use for training other family members and just keep this vintage craft running and out of the boneyard.

I am looking at a rather cosmetically challenged (lol) interior on this 1965 PA-28 160 plane and need to know first off what avionics are installed, how much of this is original (if any) and what any of you would do first to clean up the panel make it more usable and substantially cleaner. I don't even know what the 4 position knob with the EVEN/ODD reminder even does. Not familiar with some of these pieces in this setup. Would rather keep the cost minimal for starters.

Can I install later model Piper yokes and sort out the PTT dilemma with only having one side (left PIC) installed? Rather have buttons built into the yokes and run neatly to the radio(s) ---
It just looks very worn and dated. Why is there no base plate on the fuel selector?

This plane will be mostly used for hours building and training --- would like to keep her flying and maintain the vintage look, but properly going to eventually go with a tan interior to better match her vintage look -----

Thoughts?
IMG_2081.jpg

IMG_2083.jpg
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I took the old junk out of my radio stack area and added a Garmin 696. It made my plane look 200% better. panel 172 2.JPG panel 172.jpg
 
The even/odd is just a pilot "reminder" placard that has little to do with the airplane, you could remove that whever you feel like it. The four position switch likely connects the single channel EGT to 4 different EGT probes (one for each engine cylinder).


Don't think I'd spend a lot of money changing what is there except maybe replacing that EGT with some sort of engine monitor / fuel flow. Depending on where you live you may want to consider ADS-B.
 
One thing to keep in mind, doing a panel in bits & pieces typically will cost more than just doing the same thing all at once. Consider what your ultimate plan is, what type flying etc to help you decide.


For me I wanted a cheap to fly per hour airplane that will burn autogas (ethanol-free car gas)
Fuel flow meter with a 4 point EGT/CHT engine monitor

That covers the initial VFR bird I wanted. I have it all paid for and now I want

Garmin GTN650 WAAS/LPV/GPS/COM/VOR navigator $1x,xxx
Garmin GTX345 ADS-B out&in transponder with wireless connectivity

In the end I'll have an IFR machine with 150 horse burning $18 an hour in gas that has engine monitor, fuel flow, WAAS/LPV GPS, VOR/GS, MRK Beacon, ADS-B In&Out with heading a hold autopilot that holds roughly 5.5 hours of fuel.

I intend to fly it for a very long time like this:

 
For one, I'd move things around on that panel, set it up like a six pack, move the Hobbs to the right corner, as for the panel itself plane plastics sells new plastic overlays for not much.
 
James331 said:
For one, I'd move things around on that panel, set it up like a six pack, move the Hobbs to the right corner, as for the panel itself plane plastics sells new plastic overlays for not much.
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I thought that too. What would you move where?
 
bnt83 said:
The even/odd is just a pilot "reminder" placard that has little to do with the airplane, you could remove that whever you feel like it. The four position switch likely connects the single channel EGT to 4 different EGT probes (one for each engine cylinder).


Don't think I'd spend a lot of money changing what is there except maybe replacing that EGT with some sort of engine monitor / fuel flow. Depending on where you live you may want to consider ADS-B.
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As a student, I do not understand the inherent value of the CHT gauge and selector? Is this for determining proper fuel mixture? Can you shed some light on the reasoning and usage for this?
 
It looks like the hole where the VSI would go, where the Hobbs is now, is a smaller hole. Or maybe it's an illusion
 
Since you asked.... I would:

replace the DG with Garmin G5

replace the CDI with with one that includes glide slope

KEEP the bowties. I used to hate them too, but there are more available hand positions than on the Ram's horns. It's nice to be able to move the PTT to wherever you're planning to hold the yoke.

Co-Pilot PTT? Panel mount that switch near your VFR reminder guide. It's no temptation for your passenger, but a pilot sitting there already has his left hand free to hit it. AND if you need to you can switch your plugs over to the CP side and be able to reach that PTT.
 
There's going to be a lot of people who'll say to spend a lot of money on that panel. I'd just toss out there that for a VFR flyer, there's really nothing there that must be updated other than the ADS-B mandate in 2020.

The rest of the opinions you'll get are certainly optional until you say you want to do IFR training or solid IMC in the thing. Then there's some things I'd upgrade for safety and convenience.

But if your goal is VFR flying and training, your really can leave that panel alone and fly the crap out of it, just the way it is, assuming it's all working properly.

It has a better panel than many airplanes I and others have flown.

Perhaps invest in an iPod or Android tablet for that "modern moving map" feel. Don't even have to mount it.
 
I had a Cherokee and looked at upgrading the "shotgun" panel. It isn't worth it and for VFR flying, you get used to it very quickly. Not all of the holes are standard, there are some depth issues and generally the wiring is going to be a mess. To truly make it a six pack you will need to have a custom panel cut. The panel is considered structural, so you will need to get that signed off (cutting out the panel). Cherokee's are great airplanes and easy to fly, but the market for them is soft and you won't get anything back for your upgrades unless you put an IFR GPS in the panel, and even then, you won't get much back. In the end, I just kept it mechanically sound and flew it as much as I could. They are a lot of fun and have a good useful load.
 
"Why is there no base plate on the fuel selector?"

There is. Same as mine.
 
rolivi said:
Since you asked.... I would:

KEEP the bowties. I used to hate them too, but there are more available hand positions than on the Ram's horns. It's nice to be able to move the PTT to wherever you're planning to hold the yoke.
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I second this. The bow-ties are more comfortable. The updated yoke your are forced to hold it one way and push the button one way.
 
OR you can do what I did and get these. At ~$1400 per pair they are pricey but they'll eliminate the AD on those bow ties and you can put your PTT inside. One word of advice, do NOT buy from Knots to You. They are a re-seller/drop shipper and don't know the product.

05-12269-2015.jpg
 
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eman1200 said:
I wouldn't do anything to that panel. it's a 65 cherokee, that's what it's supposed to look like. spend ur money on avgas and a tablet and fly the shiznit out of it, VFR all day.
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'Zactly. As mentioned above, rearranging the pieces would be much more trouble and expense than it's worth. Here's the panel as seen in the 1964-65 Cherokee brochure (without control wheels, for a complete view):

pa-28-180_1964_pnl.jpg

You have a Narco Mark 12D navcom and Narco AT150 transponder. As long as they keep working, they're fine for VFR. But Narco is out of business now, and getting their products fixed is often a problem. In the early 1960s, Narco was the gold standard for light G.A. airplanes, like the vacuum-tube Mark 12s, and the ADF and prehistoric DME in the photo above. But in later years, their reputation and customer service soured. If those Narco units quit, other manufacturers make more modern radios that are designed to be slide-in replacements for Narcos.
 
Pilawt said:
'Zactly. As mentioned above, rearranging the pieces would be much more trouble and expense than it's worth. Here's the panel as seen in the 1964-65 Cherokee brochure (without control wheels, for a complete view):

View attachment 48438

You have a Narco Mark 12D navcom and Narco AT150 transponder. As long as they keep working, they're fine for VFR. But Narco is out of business now, and getting their products fixed is often a problem. In the early 1960s, Narco was the gold standard for light G.A. airplanes, like the vacuum-tube Mark 12s, and the ADF and prehistoric DME in the photo above. But in later years, their reputation and customer service soured. If those Narco units quit, other manufacturers make more modern radios that are designed to be slide-in replacements for Narcos.
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Thank you so much for the insight. Love the interior wall panel color. I have no idea how I ended up with a blue interior and orange paint job. Assuming the plane was originally blue as I believe these generally matched. Thanks again.
 
What would I need to add to make it IFR capable? Just asking...
 
More pix from the '64-'65 brochures:

PA-28-180_1967_int1_zps55d45c58.jpeg


piper_line_1965_10.jpg

The blue one in the photo has the standard paint scheme with one trim color. The other one has the optional "Palm Beach" exterior with two trim colors.
 
Timbeck2 said:
N7611W is still flying but 13W appears to be rotting away on some airport somewhere. June Cleaver needs to put that cigarette out.
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Where did you get the info on 13W? Any pics of this aircraft or location? Just curious.
 
I don't know what your location is or what your payload mission is, but be aware a 150hp airplane is going to be very limited in actual ifr ability.
If you are just planning on shooting through low clouds and descending through low clouds then your good to go, but trying to get to the MEA with an acceptable climbrate can get hard real quick in a 150hp bugsmasher
 
I just went to the FAA's N number lookup page and saw that the registration hadn't been renewed.
 
Here's a thought for the OP. Fly it for 100 hours as-is. By then you'll know if something is driving you nuts with the panel or avionics. And you'll have a feel for maintenance costs, etc.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I don't know what your location is or what your payload mission is, but be aware a 150hp airplane is going to be very limited in actual ifr ability.
If you are just planning on shooting through low clouds and descending through low clouds then your good to go, but trying to get to the MEA with an acceptable climbrate can get hard real quick in a 150hp bugsmasher
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Climbs can be slow but if you are diligent it shouldn't be a problem. It might even be a fun challenge. (Most of my IFR will be South Dakota/Nebraska/Kansas areas so shouldn't be bad at all in 150 horse)

A fun article about flying the 100 horse Cessna 150 IFR, https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2006/april/pilot/ifr-in-a-modest-airplane
 
bnt83 said:
Climbs can be slow but if you are diligent it shouldn't be a problem. It might even be a fun challenge. (Most of my IFR will be South Dakota/Nebraska/Kansas areas so shouldn't be bad at all in 150 horse)

A fun article about flying the 100 horse Cessna 150 IFR, https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2006/april/pilot/ifr-in-a-modest-airplane
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I love that article! Love when it says, "Don't let the know-it-alls fool you; anything that gets you up in the air is a real airplane. It doesn't get any more real than that." Reminds me of the good ole POA.
 
bnt83 said:
Climbs can be slow but if you are diligent it shouldn't be a problem. It might even be a fun challenge. (Most of my IFR will be South Dakota/Nebraska/Kansas areas so shouldn't be bad at all in 150 horse)

A fun article about flying the 100 horse Cessna 150 IFR, https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2006/april/pilot/ifr-in-a-modest-airplane
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Ya you'll be fine in that part of the country. I'm just picturing myself in a 150 trying to go north out of hawthorne, Camarillo or Santa Barbara Where you need to climb to 4-5k+ before they even start letting you fly in the right direction. Doing climbing circles for 10-15 minutes in IMC before being sent off towards your destination is not fun.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I'm just picturing myself in a 150 trying to go north out of hawthorne, Camarillo or Santa Barbara Where you need to climb to 4-5k+ before they even start letting you fly in the right direction.
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The OP's airplane is apparently one of the original Cherokee 160s, which does noticeably better than a -150. I owned and flew a 150-hp Cherokee 140 out of KVNY for a few years, including a lot of IFR, back in the 1980s. With respect for its limitations and a little patience, it was fine.
 
Pilawt said:
The OP's airplane is apparently one of the original Cherokee 160s, which does noticeably better than a -150. I owned and flew a 150-hp Cherokee 140 out of KVNY for a few years, including a lot of IFR, back in the 1980s. With respect for its limitations and a little patience, it was fine.
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I actually would really like to fly a 160HP Cherokee...we are picking up our 1965 Cherokee 140 tomorrow (150HP) and we thought about doing the 160HP STC at some point (it is about $3,000 I think?). But I wasn't sure if that difference between 150HP and 160HP was all the big?
 
CC268 said:
I wasn't sure if that difference between 150HP and 160HP was all the big?
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If you're used to a Cherokee 180 (perhaps the ideal engine for that airframe), a -160 will still be disappointing. But coming from a -150, it's noticeably better.

The first Cherokee to be certified and go on the market was the PA-28-160, in mid 1961. The PA-28-150, identical except for the lower-compression engine, arrived a few months later. The -150 and -160 were built side-by-side until both were discontinued in 1967, leaving the Cherokee 140 trainer (also 150 hp, despite the name), the Cherokee D 180, the -235B, and the new 180 hp Arrow.

The -160 had a max gross weight of 50 pounds more than the -150, all but five pounds of that went to improved useful load. It was a skosh faster and climbed better than the -150, and only cost $510 more -- less than a 5% difference. So why two so similar models on the production line at the same time?

Those were the days when there were three grades of avgas -- 80/87 octane, 91/96 and 100/115. The Cherokee 150 could use the less expensive -- and still plentiful -- 80/87, while the -160 required at least the 91/96 grade. If your airport was one of those that didn't happen to have a 91/96 pump, you had to use the even costlier 100 octane. This made direct operating costs of the -160 significantly more than the -150.

So for a lot of new airplane buyers in the 1960s, the step-up in performance in the PA-28-160 was worth the added operating cost over the -150. Now, since everyone uses the same 100LL, the operating costs have nearly leveled out between the two models.

(By the way, Piper offered the same 150/160 hp choice during the last couple of years of production of the Tri-Pacer. The 150 hp version had less standard equipment and was called the "Caribbean".)
 
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Yea we wanted a 180, but it just didn't work out that way. If we fly enough we will end up with a Mooney or Vans down the road anyhow.
 
were is that aircraft altimeter says 5000
 
My polite suggestion to you is that aircraft ownership has its own significant learning curve. Becoming a proficient owner of an airplane which likely needs some attention, all while learning how to fly, adds a lot of complexity to your goal of becoming a pilot. However, it doesn't add a lot of value. Yes, there are notable exceptions to that, certainly... but not many.

My general recommendation is to get your private pilot certificate, fly for a bit (100 hours?) and only then consider aircraft ownership. You'll have a much better idea of what fits you and your mission profile, which is likely to change as you gain experience. You'll also be more reasonably prepared to tackle the care and feeding of an airplane.
 
Saintroad said:
How much did this cost to buy and have installed? What is that 4-position piece at the bottom of my stack? Would the 696 fit in my setup? Does it bring me any closer to ADS-B compliance?
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No portable will be legal for ADS-B out. A 696 is a GPS handhled and tha's all. Altho the radios and transponder are Narco, if they work, good. You may want to replace the transponder with an ADS-B transponder, which will satisfy the OUT requirement. I'd also go for a new radio, possibly a TKM slide-in replacement for the Narco or another model that gets you a bit more contemporary.

Replacing the yokes - yes, having the PTT built in but the original yokes are classic. See if the shop can add the PTT.

More than anything else, the instruments need to be moved into the standard 6pack and an audio panel installed.
 
CC268 said:
I love that article! Love when it says, "Don't let the know-it-alls fool you; anything that gets you up in the air is a real airplane. It doesn't get any more real than that." Reminds me of the good ole POA.
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Yup. Everytime I want a faster airplane I remember....I own an airplane. Might slower than the RVs in the EAA chapter, but I own an airplane.
 
murphey said:
Yup. Everytime I want a faster airplane I remember....I own an airplane. Might slower than the RVs in the EAA chapter, but I own an airplane.
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I'm in the same boat. Would love to have a fire breathing six banger that goes 150 knots+ but just don't need it. The airplane I have is heck of a lot cheaper to fix if the engine comes from together.

I'm in my 30s too which helps justify some nice radios now that I hope to get a lot of use out of.
 
Sorry to drag out an old thread, but I have the same basic question and found this site while searching for answers.

Let me narrow it down a little to perhaps limit the scope of re-hashing: Specifically, I am interested in the problems associated with simply rearranging the existing instruments into the now standard 6-pack. I am new here, and cannot yet post links, but I am looking at used Cherokees and have come across a couple ads now where the pictured instrument panel is EXACTLY as pictured in the original post, EXCEPT for the position of the instruments. I could of course be wrong, but it does not look at all like a custom panel was used.

I see the cautions about hole sizes being different, and a good warning about possible differences in the available depth as well as wiring being messy. What I am interested in is hearing from anyone who has actually rearranged things themselves, or had it done. Cost, problems encountered, lessons learned, etc.

Not to be rude, but again to limit the scope for this discussion, I am not looking for generic advice to simply leave as is, etc. I guess I can’t post a hot link until I get over 5 posts, but perhaps others can copy/paste the following to see an example of what I am talking about:

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/26872525/1966-piper-cherokee-180

Thanks for your consideration!
 
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