DA20 Characteristics

[Rob Schaffer]

Guys,.. I've just scheduled a flight in a Diamond DA-20 for Nov 20th. I know they are great training planes, but anything in particular I should think about? I've trained in the C152, and have been flying C172SP's since July. For me to just go flying burning holes in the sky at $140 for the C172SP isn't to practical, so the $89 for the DA20 is much better till I can find another cost effective solution (partnership or something)

I've heard they take a little brake action on the right during the throttle up on takeoff roll, since they don't have a steerable nosewheel like the Cessna's do.

Looks like a great plane to fly. What's the typical available usefull load? I know it compares to the C152 I flew, but it's composite, so I presume the empty weight is a little lower.

I'm going to download the manual from the Diamond Website to review. Any other thoughts are appreciated. Here's the 2001 I'll be flying.

 

[jesse]

You'll love it. I used to fly a DA-20-C1 all the time. As you mention, no steerable nosewheel, so you depend more on rudder and brake authority to counter-act torque.

I always just put the right rudder to the floor and added power. Add a tiny bit of brake if you need it--but you might not. Reduce rudder as the rudder becomes more effective to maintain center-line.

The airplane is easy to fly. You can expect to true out at 130 KTAS up high. It is spin approved and will roll into a spin real easily. It doesn't really like to remain in the spin after about 3 rotations.

Short field performance was great. All in all--one of the best airplanes I've ever flown. I miss it

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Thanks Jesse. What happened to the one you used to fly? Change places you rent from or did they get rid of it?

 

[GMascelli]

From the web page....

Engine Continental IO-240-B , 93 kW Horsepower125 hp
Propeller Sensenich 2-blade fixed pitch
Wingspan 35 ft 8 in
Max. T/O Weight 1,764 lbs
Useful Load 600 lbs
Fuel Capacity 24.0 gal
Cruise (75%) 138 ktas (5.5 gal/hr)
Max Crosswind 20 kts

 

[tonycondon]

i flew the one with Jesse around the pattern at gastons and i loved it too. very honest handling. to me it flew the way an airplane should fly. you'll love it. and the visibility is great too!

 

[john smith]

Which model are you flying?
The ROTAX or the Continental powered?
It makes a difference in your procedures.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Thanks guys. It is the Continental Engine. I've downloaded the manual to review V-Speeds and procedures and the checklist that the FBO has. Seems a lot like the Cessna 152 flew as far as speeds and weight, but in a nicer package and sleeker airframe. Looking forward to the 20th to see how it flies.

 

[Anthony]

Thanks guys. It is the Continental Engine. I've downloaded the manual to review V-Speeds and procedures and the checklist that the FBO has. Seems a lot like the Cessna 152 flew as far as speeds and weight, but in a nicer package and sleeker airframe. Looking forward to the 20th to see how it flies.

And if it really cruises over 130 KTAS, then you can actually go somewhere.

Does anyone have real world (not POH) numbers for cruise at 75% power?

 

[SCCutler]

With wheel pants, they cruise like that.

Everything that Jesse said- I still miss flying the DA20 today, and if I had more money than sense, I'd be tempted to buy one as a "buzz-around buggy."

 

[jason]

And if it really cruises over 130 KTAS, then you can actually go somewhere.

Does anyone have real world (not POH) numbers for cruise at 75% power?

Not unless somebody owns one. Who would cruise at 75% in a rental?

 

[jesse]

And if it really cruises over 130 KTAS, then you can actually go somewhere.

Does anyone have real world (not POH) numbers for cruise at 75% power?

Up high, 7,000 ft or so, according to the Garmin 430's TAS calculator I was generally able to true 130 knots even. Down low, 1,000 ft or so, 125 knots indicated was possible. Like I said above, it's basically a 130 KTAS airplane.

 

[Anthony]

Up high, 7,000 ft or so, according to the Garmin 430's TAS calculator I was generally able to true 130 knots even. Down low, 1,000 ft or so, 125 knots indicated was possible. Like I said above, it's basically a 130 KTAS airplane.

Which is better than any other "trainer" including the C-172. Heck, I only get 135 KTAS in my Tiger, so 130 KTAS on 125 HP is darn good. Modern design and materials do work.

 

[AWACSEng]

I've heard it's a slippery airplane. Doesn't like to slow down like the flying speedbrake called the Skyhawk.

 

[KennyFlys]

I've heard it's a slippery airplane. Doesn't like to slow down like the flying speedbrake called the Skyhawk.

It was designed by a company that builds gliders. Any further questions?

To me, it does fly like a sheet of paper. The rascal will float forever if you don't have good airspeed control on final.

 

[Ted]

No experience flying any Diamond, but Rob I'm glad you found something that is more cost effective for you! Let us know how your check out goes!

 

[jesse]

It was designed by a company that builds gliders. Any further questions?

To me, it does fly like a sheet of paper. The rascal will float forever if you don't have good airspeed control on final.

It is a little slick--but really not that bad. People just need to get better at pulling the power off and pulling the nose up. Do that and you'll be in the white in a flash--dump full flaps and you're ready to land.

As far as float on landing--it won't float if you're at the right speed. 5 knots too fast and you're going to waste a thousand feet.

The 20 is lacking in elevator authority IMO.

 

[tonycondon]

To me, it does fly like a sheet of paper. The rascal will float forever if you don't have good airspeed control on final.

and so will pretty much anything else

 

[KennyFlys]

and so will pretty much anything else

My challenge to you, Mr. Phelps, should you choose to accept it...

Try a power-off accuracy landing with the DA-20. I knew a guy who wanted to do a single add-on to his commercial ticket but he would not learn the G-1000 or go to a Skyhawk. So, he spent forever trying to do the PO180's in the Eclipse. He had made a half dozen flights over the two weeks I knew him and still had not got it accomplished.

At least he was logging plenty of PIC time!

 

[tonycondon]

interesting, on my flight with jesse im pretty sure i did at least a mostly power off approach to gastons, and had no real issue touching down at the beginning of the runway. made a really nice smooth full stall landing if i must say so myself

 

[KennyFlys]

interesting, on my flight with jesse im pretty sure i did at least a mostly power off approach to gastons, and had no real issue touching down at the beginning of the runway. made a really nice smooth full stall landing if i must say so myself

Yeah, but you're a show-off.

There's a lot of technique to it but I think it's more difficult for most in the 20 than in the 172/182. It's not a plane you have to worry too much about landing short. If I had access to one, it would be fun to go give it a try. With a little practice, one could make good use of those 60 degree flaps.

 

[Ted]

As far as float on landing--it won't float if you're at the right speed. 5 knots too fast and you're going to waste a thousand feet.

Not unlike the Mooney I fly. If you get your speed at 75-80 mph on short final, it'll be a nice landing (assuming you get the rest of it right, of course). Faster and it will float and bounce, at least for both me and the plane's owner.

 

[jesse]

My challenge to you, Mr. Phelps, should you choose to accept it...

Try a power-off accuracy landing with the DA-20. I knew a guy who wanted to do a single add-on to his commercial ticket but he would not learn the G-1000 or go to a Skyhawk. So, he spent forever trying to do the PO180's in the Eclipse. He had made a half dozen flights over the two weeks I knew him and still had not got it accomplished.

At least he was logging plenty of PIC time!

Uhm. I did them all the time--and Tony did it fine at Gastons. People just need to learn how to manage energy a little better--seems as though most people just flip a coin when they're trying to do a power off.

It is just an airplane--and a good stable slow flying one too. This is the area where the DA-20 shines. Just takes a CFI that knows how to fly one to teach it....

This is a video of me playing a little in the DA-20 one day which includes my standard 6" low pass:

That landing was basically power off--seem like I had trouble hitting the numbers?

Another video of me flying the 20:

See much float on that grass landing? Nope because my goal was to touch down within the first few feet because I didn't want to get in the way of all the gliders. The pavement landing at the end had a tiny bit of float, but that was because I wasn't really trying to land short.

 

[KennyFlys]

Uhm. I did them all the time--and Tony did it fine at Gastons. People just need to learn how to manage energy a little better--seems as though most people just flip a coin when they're trying to do a power off.

It is just an airplane--and a good stable slow flying one too. This is the area where the DA-20 shines. Just takes a CFI that knows how to fly one to teach it....

I'd love to get more time in one. At the time, I flew an hour to satisfy the Chief CFI for teaching. At the time, all I had were primary students who were way behind on knowledge so I didn't do much flying other than a few local flights with maneuvers and a night cross country.

I'd love to go just play with one and see what I can make it do. Someday, I'll get another chance.

 

[bbchien]

My challenge to you, Mr. Phelps, should you choose to accept it...

Try a power-off accuracy landing with the DA-20. I knew a guy who wanted to do a single add-on to his commercial ticket but he would not learn the G-1000 or go to a Skyhawk. So, he spent forever trying to do the PO180's in the Eclipse. He had made a half dozen flights over the two weeks I knew him and still had not got it accomplished.

At least he was logging plenty of PIC time!

They slip very nicely....

 

[tonycondon]

They slip very nicely....

ya, but like modern pod/boom gliders, they have a very effective rudder but not much side area to back it up. so you can put them in a 20 or 30 degree yaw angle slip, but its not going to have a dramatic effect on the descent rate

 

[bbchien]

YA slip it and pull the nose up. In five seconds you have significant descent rate.

But mostly Jesse is correct. Those that have learned solely in brand P or C have their eyes opened by having to actually learn energy management. The Brand M guys come closest to having a handle on it.

Then there was my B52 transition pilot who wouldn't land his F33 at less than 100 knots......

 

[tonycondon]

how much does the slip contribute to the descent? would it be about the same if you just pulled back?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Rob,

I've flown the DA40 but not the 20, however they are very similar airplanes, so hopefully this will help.

What everyone says about float is true. *Nail* your airspeed on final, and it won't be a problem.

On the 40, the stall horn goes off WAY before the actual stall, so don't be too shocked if you hear it chirp a few times on final if it's bumpy, just like in Jesse's videos. And while a 172 will sometimes have the stall horn go off on landing, the Diamond WILL have it go off on EVERY landing unless you're hitting nose first. This is probably my biggest dislike on this otherwise-excellent airplane.

It's really easy to chase yourself all over the sky, coming from a Cessna. The Diamonds are maneuverable and sporty and a lot of fun to fly, but the biggest trick to flying them smoothly is to NOT TOUCH the controls, not at all, unless you actually want to make a change to what the airplane is doing. Steady state flight is best done with your hand around the stick but not actually touching it. Think what you want the plane to do, and it responds. Once you figure this out, they're an absolute delight to fly.

With the lower rental rate and the Diamond's superior speed and efficiency, you should be able to make your cross-country hops quite a bit cheaper, and I guarantee they'll be more enjoyable as well.

Have fun!

 

[Anthony]

The Brand M guys come closest to having a handle on it.

I would add us Brand G guys also.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Thanks Kent,.. I'm really looking forward to it.

 

[jesse]

how much does the slip contribute to the descent? would it be about the same if you just pulled back?

The DA-20 actually did ok slips and fell pretty good in a slip. One interesting thing was that a slip tended to mess with pitch a lot more then most airplanes I've flown. It required significant backwards stick to keep the nose from pointing straight down--almost like the elevator was lacking airflow (it has a very small elevator).

 

[RadioRalphie]

The DA-20 actually did ok slips and fell pretty good in a slip...

Forward slips (on final) are not very effective on the DA20 because of the lack of drag of the clean airframe and skinny tail section in order to lose altitude quickly.

You might consider this technique.

Once on final with full flaps/power to idle, push the nose down and hold the airspeed at 78 kts (81kts A1). This will increase your angle of decent. Once you lose sufficient altitude slowly pull the stick back to bleed off the airspeed. The airspeed will bleed off quickly because the low mass airframe does not develop much inertia.

This is considered an "advanced technique" so I would perform this first at safe altitude to get comfortable with the nose down attitude.

On my checkride years ago I demonstrated this to my DE as well as the slip.

I have almost 300 hours in the DA20 and currently own two.

I love these planes they are sooooo much fun. I have owned a total of eight Diamond planes including two DA40's.

2001 Diamond DA20-C1 N629DC
2006 Diamond DA20-C1 N629DC

 

[jesse]

You might consider this technique.

Once on final with full flaps/power to idle, push the nose down and hold the airspeed at 78 kts (81kts A1). This will increase your angle of decent. Once you lose sufficient altitude slowly pull the stick back to bleed off the airspeed. The airspeed will bleed off quickly because the low mass airframe does not develop much inertia.

This is considered an "advanced technique" so I would perform this first at safe altitude to get comfortable with the nose down attitude.

Huh? Pulling the power to idle and pushing the nose down is an advanced technique?

I thought the DA-20 did just fine at slips. No, it wasn't a 182 in a slip with 40 degrees of flaps, but it came down just fine.

 

[RadioRalphie]

Huh? Pulling the power to idle and pushing the nose down is an advanced technique?

My Cherokee comes down quickly in a forward slip but not so much in the DA20. Sure you can slip but the method I described works much better. The reason I say its an "advanced technique" is most people do not feel comfortable looking nearly straight down at the ground on final. Plus instructors teach students not to dive for the runway. Kinda opposite of what is taught.

I use it all the time, its lots of fun.

The technique I described can be found in the ASA's Diamond DA20 Katana A Pilot's Guide . I did not make this stuff up. I love to demonstate this. Come on over let me show you

Quote from the ASA Guide:

"There is no prohibition against slipping the Katana. However, the small fuselage of the Katana does not produce much drag in a side slip, and thus has a smaller effect on the decent rate than would be expected of other airplanes. For a reletively slow and very steep decent in a Katana, try full flaps and up to 78 knots airspeed (do not exceed 81 knots in the A1 and 78 knots in C1). If 78 knots is carried through to the approach, the airspeed will bleed off quickly because the lightweight (low mass) airframe does not develop much enertia to slow down. This technique works very well for short approaches as an advanced pilot technique that should be introduced to the new pilot by an instructor"

 

[jesse]

My Cherokee comes down quickly in a forward slip but not so much in the DA20. Sure you can slip but the method I described works much better. The reason I say its an "advanced technique" is most people do not feel comfortable looking nearly straight down at the ground on final. Plus instructors teach students not to dive for the runway. Kinda opposite of what is taught.

I use it all the time, its lots of fun.

The technique I described can be found in the ASA's Diamond DA20 Katana A Pilot's Guide . I did not make this stuff up. I love to demonstate this. Come on over let me show you

Quote from the ASA Guide:

"There is no prohibition against slipping the Katana. However, the small fuselage of the Katana does not produce much drag in a side slip, and thus has a smaller effect on the decent rate than would be expected of other airplanes. For a reletively slow and very steep decent in a Katana, try full flaps and up to 78 knots airspeed (do not exceed 81 knots in the A1 and 78 knots in C1). If 78 knots is carried through to the approach, the airspeed will bleed off quickly because the lightweight (low mass) airframe does not develop much enertia to slow down. This technique works very well for short approaches as an advanced pilot technique that should be introduced to the new pilot by an instructor"

I guess what I meant--was that I didn't see anything advanced about that. It is a pretty simple concept. It doesn't exactly explain how you're supposed to get rid of that 20 knots of airspeed after you dive over your 50-75 foot trees with less than 2,000 feet remaining in front of you.

It wouldn't really work that well on short fields with big obstacles. The DA-20 is going to take a whole hell of a lot of distance to get rid of the extra 20 knots of airspeed you didn't need when you were diving over the obstacle. Even if you jerk the nose into the sky and full slip down the length of the runway to try and lose that speed it still takes a lot of distance. On a 2,000 ft grass runway you'd probably burn through the whole thing with 20 knots of extra airspeed even at idle with full flaps.

I found it slipped just fine and could land it in less then 500 feet with big obstacles. I'd just full slip it in at about 55-60 knots and would do s-turning slips if needed.

 

[SCCutler]

Ralphie-

Jesse is a good stick.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

well, after rescheduling due to weather, and then due to a change of plans at home, I'm back on the schedule to try the Diamond tomorrow during my lunch hour(s) tomorrow.

I'll post how it goes.

 

[radiokaos]

Well, I thought I would give my .2 cents since we are talking about the DA20.

I too own a DA20-C1 and have about 120 hours on mine. Slipping is fun in the DA20 and it will work. It might not work as well in comparison to a 172 but you can still drop some altitude.

The handling on the DA20 is nice and responsive.

Here is a example of some touch and go's with the instruments giving you an idea on effective speeds.

I also have video of no flap landings were I was at 90 kts over the threshold and burned up 1000 ft. of runway trying to land.

 

[thepetrostate]

Rob,

It's really easy to chase yourself all over the sky, coming from a Cessna. The Diamonds are maneuverable and sporty and a lot of fun to fly, but the biggest trick to flying them smoothly is to NOT TOUCH the controls, not at all, unless you actually want to make a change to what the airplane is doing. Steady state flight is best done with your hand around the stick but not actually touching it. Think what you want the plane to do, and it responds. Once you figure this out, they're an absolute delight to fly.
Have fun!

I'll double up on this, much like a highly sensitive, fine tuned motorcar. "Think" turns into "do" until you relax into the controls and gain the true sense of the 20s characteristics.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Wow,... what a feeling!!

A slick little plane, and true to form for everything you guys posted. After a good introduction and walkthrough with the instructor, we started up and taxied down to the end of the runway. Flaps for takeoff, and power forward, and before I new it we were up and away. The stick came very natural, but it was very sensitive to inputs. I noticed that as the airspeed came up, the sensitivity did as well. I first flew a long outside pattern to get a feel for the plane before going for some landings. Very loose grip on the stick and just a push with the fingers was all it needed.

First time on downwind,.. I was 110 kts +,... it really holds its energy. I finally managed to hold the nose up enough and bleed off speed to drop in the first notch of flaps. After a few hundred feet, I turned base and then added landing flaps, wow,.. those things are speed brakes! from 75 to 60kts quick. Ok,.. little high,.. just barely touch the stick forward and Whoa! that airspeed comes up fast,... definitely going to take a while to get this airspeed and throttle settings locked in. We took off again, and went in the pattern. This time, since I wasn't up and around the pattern, I didn't hit the high airspeed and I was able to fly the downwind and enter base much better. About on short final, it all clicked and for about 5 seconds I felt the perfect balance between throttle, airspeed, glide path, aim point,.. it was great! Then the airspeed slipped below 60 and I needed to add a small amount of power,... back up to 68 knots, and floating over the numbers,... past the 500 ' mark,.. and finally down somewhere about 1000 I bet. So easy to float down the runway. Both landings were very smooth, good stall sound, and nose up. Not bad for my first low-wing landings.

But,.. It was a BLAST! Such a great little airplane and I'm definitely going to follow through with the few lessons to get the landings nailed and learn how it stalls, slow flight, etc,.. then get fully checked out.

Now,.. for my next lunch hour...

Below is my track off my gps before the battery died on the last turn to base.