DA-40, How much do you like this aircraft?

tmyers

tmyers

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Tim Myers
An acquaintance with a DA-40 has hinted that he may be looking for a partner.

We have not talked about this at all but it has me wondering if this might be a good move.

From what I have read the DA-40 is a 140kt machine besting my Arrow by only 3 to 5 knots, but burns slightly less fuel in the process. Available fuel and range does not meet the Arrow being 41G and 72G respectively. the useable weight is about 100 less than the Arrow as well.

On the plus size we are talking about a 2005 aircraft with the G1000 panel, and access is way better than in my Arrow. The Arrow is a 77

We both fly about 50 - 60 hours a year so availability shouldn't be an issue.

What do you think about the DA-40???
 
It's alright, doesn't ride as nice in turbulence as your Arrow and the roll is considerably more 'ponderous', but it makes more sense all around to partner on it. It's not a bad plane, but don't expect 140 out of it.
 
I love the looks and characteristics of the plane. I think it is a smart move to move from single owner at 50-60 hrs a year to co-owner situation assuming you are cutting annual costs in half. If you are not cutting annual costs in half then what is the real point?

I have heard of difficulties with the G1000, I here better about the G500 or G600 which came later but with some learning and mods by Garmin. I wouldn't let it stand in my way of having a fully high technology airplane and loving the hell out of it.

I myself value useful load over anything else, range 2nd and speed 3rd. So you are giving up two important areas but gaining in one.

I'd be double sure of the on going costs in maintenance and insurance to make sure I was comparing apples and oranges.

One last thing, talk about how to get out of the partnership? Adding other partners, first right of refusal, what if you gain some money and want to fly around the world for 50-70 days? How do you handle holidays, vacations, are your maintenance philosophies the same? Minimalist or maximum? Sounds crazy but some like spending money on maintenance that is not really required because it makes them feel safe.

If you are sure of all these things then list your plane for sale.
 
Henning said:
don't expect 140 out of it.
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I remember drinking my rum punch and wondering if someone should go back and look for you guys in Grand Cayman Islands... I only had 15 knots on the nose did you guys have 30 down low?
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I remember drinking my rum punch and wondering if someone should go back and look for you guys in Grand Cayman Islands... I only had 15 knots on the nose did you guys have 30 down low?
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Nope, don't recall exactly, but not much. The DA-40s I have flow, the non XLS, no mods ones, are 133kt airplanes, and that is WOT, 2500 & 25°ROP.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I have heard of difficulties with the G1000, I here better about the G500 or G600 which came later but with some learning and mods by Garmin.
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Have you flown either or both? I have (at least the G500, not the G600), and I haven't seen anything in the G500 which appears to be the result of "learning and mods by Garmin" based on the G1000. The G500 has been described as "G1000 Lite," and I think that is a reasonably accurate description. Its primary advantage is that it is retrofittable while the G1000 is not. OTOH, it loses some of the integration of the G1000 since it relies on physically and electronically separate comm and nav radios.
 
Hmmmm.

Sounds like I might be going backwards in a couple areas. My option is to put about $30K in to the Arrow with Aspen 1000 Pro, GTN-650 and the 8000 series of audio panel to bring the avionics up to date.

There is however the issue of what it is worth after putting that much into it.
 
I have not flown a G1000 or the 500 - 600. Pure steam so far here.

The owner wants to take me up soon just as friends he has no idea I am interested, and in the long run he may shy away from it also. I have never been in an aircraft partnership but look at it much like a marriage, gotta make sure it will work before writing the check.
 
The Diamond seems "cool" at first but gets old quickly, especially if you have to fly it in turbulence. It fills a weird niche. Personally, I would rather fly an Arrow.
 
Henning said:
Nope, don't recall exactly, but not much. The DA-40s I have flow, the non XLS, no mods ones, are 133kt airplanes, and that is WOT, 2500 & 25°ROP.
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That's about right. Still an efficient machine.

tmyers said:
Not sure why they didn't put a 200HP IO-360 on it.
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Probably cooling. The cowling is cramped and the engines run hot. Vapor lock is a problem taxiing around on the ground. That would be kick ass though.
 
Seems that would have given it Mooney like speed of maybe 150kts which would have been an advantage I think. they seem to be always looking at ways to improve the basic aircraft maybe some day.

Based on what I am hearing it wouldn't be that stable in IMC?
 
tmyers said:
Seems that would have given it Mooney like speed of maybe 150kts which would have been an advantage I think. they seem to be always looking at ways to improve the basic aircraft maybe some day.

Based on what I am hearing it wouldn't be that stable in IMC?
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Depends on the type, Stratoform? No problem. Convective? Not a fun ride at all, I actually had to take it over from the autopilot to keep from getting bounced around too hard.
 
I will have to fly it to get a good feel, but the warm and fuzzy is already wearing a bit thin.
 
I have a 2011 XLS. It has been a solid airplane. Perfect for two adults, two dogs and luggage. I rarely fly 3-4 people.

With the larger two blade prop and powerflow exhaust, it is a 150 KTAS airplane when trimmed up and WOT.

I fly IFR most times and can tell you the G1000 coupled with the GFC700 autopilot is simply the best thing flying in this class. Only knocks I would give it are marginal load and CG range, higher sensitivity to turbulence (aspect ratio and wing loading), and noisy primary air vents.

Hot in the summer and comfy in the winter with that large canopy glass.
 
tmyers said:
Hmmmm.

Sounds like I might be going backwards in a couple areas. My option is to put about $30K in to the Arrow with Aspen 1000 Pro, GTN-650 and the 8000 series of audio panel to bring the avionics up to date.
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You don't do anything like that in a light single you foresee selling anytime soon.

There is however the issue of what it is worth after putting that much into it.
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Exactly. You put $30K into the plane, you increase its value by maybe half that. Consider the balance of the value to you of those avionics over the foreseeable period of ownership versus that missing $15K.
 
Hot hot hot in summer.
Bumpy in any turbulence.
133-135 ktas
G1000 works great.
Fun to fly and the center stick is great, but seriously hot and bumpy.

My experience is 40 hrs in a 2005-06? Out of KCRG


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I am fine with keeping the aircraft till I can no longer fly. A $30K investment gets me up to around $95K in the Arrow and I could probably get something similar with the avionics I want for that or less. Then there is the issue that I trust this aircraft and feel I know it.That's worth a lot to me. I fear that with steam gauges it might be hard to sell when the time comes.
 
As far as I know 2005 doesn't have WAAS. It's 25k upgrade. I was getting 135kts at 8000-10000. KAP-140 autopilot isn't something to write home about.
On the bright side it's very nice plane, comfortable and economical on fuel. G1000 is awesome. Flying 50-60 hours per year I would consider getting into partnership.
 
TM you could back off a little on the Aspen and just put the bigger Garmin touch screen with an audio panel and get it in under $20K maybe, and that would make a hell of a nice plane.

I don't know your equipment, so I'm reaching. But get the GTN 750, or the 650 with GPSS to your auto pilot, and keep your steam and that's a nice Arrow.

I say keep your Arrow and keep your single ownership if you can hack it. Or get a skywagon. I had to add that... :D
 
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Four of us share a 2005 DA-40 with the Hartzell prop, G1000 and KAP 140. We fly it about 150 -200 hrs a year and have been from coast to coast. I fly it IFR and it is a fine IFR platform in IMC. I used to have a 182S and although the 182 is more roomy, this feels better with the canopy style, low wing design. I also use an OregonAero seat cushion back.

The only things we miss about the 182 are its rough weather ride and interior space for baggage.

I would look for one with the GFC autopilot.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I have heard of difficulties with the G1000
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Yeah? Please tell us more.

Let me add one data point beside yours...

I have about 1K hours behind THE G-1000 and had exactly 1 trip cancelled due to a G-1000 issue that was fixed in 1.5 hours after arrival to the shop...
 
Useful load sucks but in my limited experience it flies like a dream. Luckily I don't have more than two friends who are willing to fly with me. :lol:
 
is your plane at the point where you're happy with it i.e. squawks? if you sell the plane and the partnership goes south, you'll have to find another plane and get it back to where you're happy with it. Just something to consider. I'm kind of a "glass half empty" kind of guy and like to have a plan B.
 
I am with you 100%, plan B is very important to me, and those are the kind of questions I will have to have answered before I would enter into any sort of partnership. I just like to know what I am getting into before I make take the big step. That is reason for the post. All of you have given me a lot to think about. The Diamond sounds like a great airplane but so is my Arrow, in my opinion. I think it all boils down to whether I spend my money on the Arrow or on a newer bird and the big one is whether or not I want to enter into an partnership.

If this moves even slightly forward I will certainly post some questions about partnership pitfalls and safety nets for same.
 
tmyers said:
I am with you 100%, plan B is very important to me, and those are the kind of questions I will have to have answered before I would enter into any sort of partnership. I just like to know what I am getting into before I make take the big step. That is reason for the post. All of you have given me a lot to think about. The Diamond sounds like a great airplane but so is my Arrow, in my opinion. I think it all boils down to whether I spend my money on the Arrow or on a newer bird and the big one is whether or not I want to enter into an partnership.

If this moves even slightly forward I will certainly post some questions about partnership pitfalls and safety nets for same.
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The safety net is to put your Arrow into a good lease back program (rare, but they do exist) with a flight school while you evaluate how the partnership plays out.
 
Phillip Greenspun wrote a pretty comprehensive review of the DA-40 back when they first came out and has updated it since then. I was in the market for a DA-40, briefly, so I was paying attention at the time. Here's the article: http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/diamond-da40

I finished up my PPL in a DA-40 and loved flying the plane. The light wing loading makes it challenging when you're being tossed around, but it seems to me after flying a fair amount of XC time that if you're in VMC up at 8k over flat land, you won't be getting much turbulence in any case. You will be tossed around down low, though.

Haven't flown an Arrow, but I can say that flying a stick is a whole lot more enjoyable than a yoke, imho.
 
I've flown the G500 but my comments are about what I have read rather than what I witness.

here is snippit.
As it has GPS, communication, and radio navigation components built directly into the system, it both consolidates components into a centralized location and, for the same reason, becomes potentially more costly to repair or replace.

Also It seems it did not have buttons to program the autopilot integrated.

Ron Levy said:
Have you flown either or both?
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Ron were you at NYC on 9/11? Me neither....but I am pretty sure those two towers are no longer there. Sometimes what you learn and read and see from primary even secondary sources is accurate......:goofy:[/QUOTE]
 
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You guys came in dead last, 30 minutes behind the next last plane...


Henning said:
Nope, don't recall exactly, but not much. The DA-40s I have flow, the non XLS, no mods ones, are 133kt airplanes, and that is WOT, 2500 & 25°ROP.
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dmspilot said:
The Diamond seems "cool" at first but gets old quickly, especially if you have to fly it in turbulence. It fills a weird niche. Personally, I would rather fly an Arrow.
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I think this is also the opinion of the Aviation Consumer articles I read.
 
Back then the DA40 was on my #1 list of planes to own but based on what we observed in real life it took the shiny off my desires...Seems like the ride was uncomfortable as well in modest turbulence.


Henning said:
And we were like the first to depart as well.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
Back then the DA40 was on my #1 list of planes to own but based on what we observed in real life it took the shiny off my desires...Seems like the ride was uncomfortable as well in modest turbulence.
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By the time we landed Grand Cayman my ass was on fire from the seat and my neck hurt from the beating. Only Av got more injured on that trip lol.
 
Henning said:
And we were like the first to depart as well.
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As I recall there were 13 airplanes leaving exactly 10 minutes apart based on the requirements for the Cuba over flight permit.

You guys left first, that is 130 minutes from first plane to last plane departing Key West and over the 327 nm course you guys came in 30 minute behind the last plane. I recall a Cherokee 6, a 180hp fix gear Cardinal in the group and they get there before you. There was also one twin, a Baron left behind me but never overtook me. :)

I left behind Av Shiloh's Comanche C Turbo 260. I think Av took the highest altitude slot and left me in the dust.
 
Henning said:
By the time we landed Grand Cayman my ass was on fire from the seat and my neck hurt from the beating. Only Av got more injured on that trip lol.
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Poor Av, There is an episode of the tv comedy "Kramer" where Niles and Kramer are taught to ride bikes that reminds me of those guys renting mopeds and Av's crash.
 
Henning said:
don't expect 140 out of it.
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Why not? Our DA40 will do 140 all day long (145 if you push it up to 75% ROP).

I've flown several others as well, and they were all 140-knot birds. Sounds like you were probably stuck with a mis-rigged or outright beaten rental plane.

Henning said:
The DA-40s I have flow, the non XLS, no mods ones, are 133kt airplanes, and that is WOT, 2500 & 25°ROP.
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I wonder if prop efficiency suffers at the higher RPM. I fly them WOT/2300 and depending on altitude either at peak or 25-50 LOP. I see 135 at 7.5 gph, 140 at 9 gph, and 145 at 10.5 gph.

Sac Arrow said:
Probably cooling. The cowling is cramped and the engines run hot. Vapor lock is a problem taxiing around on the ground.
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Don't know where you get that. :dunno: Our CHT's tend to be around 350 without any effort to keep them cool, never had a vapor lock problem with it running.

tmyers said:
Seems that would have given it Mooney like speed of maybe 150kts which would have been an advantage I think.
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Naah, power doesn't give you much in cruise speed. In theory, taking the 140-knot 180-hp bird and throwing a 200hp engine on it will make it a 145-knot bird, but that assumes both engines weigh the same (a reasonable assumption, given that an IO-360 can be either/or but I'm not sure of the differences that make it a 200hp vs. a 180) and that you're going to carry the same fuel weight, which means range will probably go down a bit.

Power gives you climb rate. Low drag gives you cruise speed. Early 40's might only do 130-135 knots, I've heard the latest greatest ones do 150.

Based on what I am hearing it wouldn't be that stable in IMC?
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The way the DA40 goes through turbulence is... different. It has a very long wing, so it may catch more thermals and if they're at the wing tip there's a higher roll moment. However, that also means that the bumps are gentler. The DA40 also (contrary to some previous posts in this thread) does NOT have a low wing loading - It's actually slightly higher than the Arrow's (17.4 lbs/ft2 for the DA40 vs. 16.2 for the Arrow).

Artiom said:
As far as I know 2005 doesn't have WAAS. It's 25k upgrade.
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Correct - WAAS wasn't added until 2007, and yes the upgrade is stupid expensive. However, there have been some of the older birds that have been upgraded.

Flying 50-60 hours per year I would consider getting into partnership.
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Definitely - Costs would go down, but availability would not be an issue unless the other guy is flying hundreds of hours per year.
 
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