Crosswind component?

[signu127]

I know all are different but what does the manufacturer of the plane do to determine the wind speed? Are you NOT supposed to break it? Is it frowned upon? I am sure there is a safety margin in there...how much over the component is probably still within the limits of the plane and most importantly as a pilot should you have your own limits set? I am a 30 hour student and have about 70 touch n go's with 20+ crosswinds. It has been my favorite part of training so far.

Thanks!

 

[Legiox]

Breaking the max crosswind your plane is designed for is a big no no. Just look in the POH and there will a graph where you can compute and figure out what the crosswinds will be like during a landing which ever RWY you will be landing on at the airport your going to.

For me, anything close to max crosswinds for the diamond 20 AC i usually fly or the diamond 40 is a no go for any flying.

 

[poadeleted21]

It's a maximum DEMONSTRATED crosswind component. i.e. It's most amount of crosswind they bothered to find and land in.

Do what you're comfortable with, know how to go around.

IMHO the max crosswind the plane can land in would be limited by the amount of correction it takes to keep the wing off the ground.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Breaking the max crosswind your plane is designed for is a big no no. Just look in the POH and there will a graph where you can compute and figure out what the crosswinds will be like during a landing which ever RWY you will be landing on at the airport your going to.

For me, anything close to max crosswinds for the diamond 20 AC i usually fly or the diamond 40 is a no go for any flying.

You must cancel a lot of flights

 

[Legiox]

I think I'm more worried about taxing in the Diamond 20 than landing with crosswinds. That is a small plane and 1 good strong gust (even with ailerons and elevator in the correct position) could still flip it. Diamond 40, not to worried about.

 

[coma24]

Ratherbflying, what's the basis for your answer that exceeding the maximum demonstrated crosswind is a big no no?

 

[Legiox]

You must cancel a lot of flights

For now, Yes. Would be only 1 year this coming June that i have been flying with my cert and rating. I'm taking things slow and steady so I don't F up royally in the air. I just don't mess around with flying, b/c if and when anything goes wrong you can't just pull over on the shoulder and fix it. Once i get experience up and start to build confidence, i will test my metal, but only while going solo .

I only have around 90 hrs right now.

 

[Legiox]

Ratherbflying, what's the basis for your answer that exceeding the maximum demonstrated crosswind is a big no no?

Insurance and the flight school/renting company i rent the planes from. They don't take to kindly people breaking the POH rules and crashing their planes. Has happened before to many other renters.

 

[Z06_Mir]

For now, Yes. Would be only 1 year this coming June that i have been flying with my cert and rating. I'm taking things slow and steady so I don't F up royally in the air. I just don't mess around with flying, b/c if and when anything goes wrong you can't just pull over on the shoulder and fix it. Once i get experience up and start to build confidence, i will test my metal, but only while going solo .

I only have around 90 hrs right now.

I finished my ppl in June also, so I get the taking it slow. I'm a very very conservative pilot but if I limited myself to 15kts I'd be on the ground a lot. It also depends on where you do a lot of flying though.

 

[Legiox]

I finished my ppl in June also, so I get the taking it slow. I'm a very very conservative pilot but if I limited myself to 15kts I'd be on the ground a lot. It also depends on where you do a lot of flying though.

True. I live in Eastern NC, so if you want to fly to the beach, you have to handle that inland wind. I have been flying to KCRE some and will attempt my first over water flight to KHSE (which is on the outerbanks) sometimes this summer.

 

[gismo]

Breaking the max crosswind your plane is designed for is a big no no. Just look in the POH and there will a graph where you can compute and figure out what the crosswinds will be like during a landing which ever RWY you will be landing on at the airport your going to.

For me, anything close to max crosswinds for the diamond 20 AC i usually fly or the diamond 40 is a no go for any flying.

You're just kidding, right? You should use one of the "smileys" when your kidding around or someone's gonna think you actually meant that nonsense.

 

[Alexb2000]

Here is the crosswind language from my Cessna POH:

Demonstrated Crosswind Velocity is the velocity of the crosswind component for which adequate control of the airplane during takeoff and landing was actually demonstrated during certification tests. The value shown is not considered to be limiting.

I'm sure every manufacturer is different, but it's a data point

 

[poadeleted21]

You're just kidding, right? You should use one of the "smileys" when your kidding around or someone's gonna think you actually meant that nonsense.

I think he's speaking to his experience level and personal opinion and not laying out rules for the collective. refreshing, actually.

 

[poadeleted20]

Despite semi-popular belief to the contrary, the Maximum Demonstrated Crosswind Component in the POH is not repeat not a limitation unless it's included in Section 2 (Limitations) and explicitly stated as such. It is merely the maximum crosswind in which the manufacturer demonstrated the aircraft could be controlled with "average" pilot technique, to a minimum of (IIRC) 0.2 times Vs0.

OTOH, those who rent planes to others may set their own limits on crosswinds not to be exceeded by renters. Their airplane, their prerogative, not to be broken without the potential for financial responsibility for the consequences and denial of future rental privileges.

Make sure you understand both and keep them appropriately separated in your mind.

 

[cirrusmx]

I don't really bother with crosswind computations. I just fly the airplane and unless the wind is hurricane strong or I can't keep center line and positive control I would go around/divert.

 

[gismo]

Insurance and the flight school/renting company i rent the planes from. They don't take to kindly people breaking the POH rules and crashing their planes. Has happened before to many other renters.

I'm beginning to suspect that you actually do mean what you wrote and you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Yes, it's a good idea to push out your personal envelope (WRT crosswinds and other challenges) gradually. But not everything in the POH is a limitation, in fact most of it is purely advisory. In a standard POH (actually AFM for most of our airplanes) there is a section titled "Limitations" and most anything in that chapter that states a limit is indeed regulatory. But NOTHING else in the AFM creates any kind of legal restriction on operations.

The "Max demonstrated crosswind" isn't even stated as a limitation, it's just a number, most often this "limit" is simply the highest crosswind component observed during landings made as part of certification testing. Part 23 requires the manufacturer to put that number in the POH for informational purposes. For a part 25 aircraft (e.g. jet transport) the rules go a bit further by requiring this number be at least 20% above Vso and at least 20 knots (but not more than 25 knots), but AFaIK there are zero/nada/no FAA requirements for establishing this number if the aircraft is certified under part 23 (or CAR 3).

So, as you gain experience and confidence in your abilities don't worry about exceeding the max demonstrated crosswind, just don't exceed your abilities.

 

[RoscoeT]

I think he's speaking to his experience level and personal opinion and not laying out rules for the collective. refreshing, actually.

Yep. When your only flying exposure is within the flight school/rental arena, that is your world.

 

[gismo]

..to a minimum of (IIRC) 0.2 times Vs0.

I couldn't find any reference to that 20% Vso in part 23, have you found something I can't?. It does exist in part 25, perhaps that's what you're remembering.

 

[poadeleted20]

I couldn't find any reference to that 20% Vso in part 23, have you found something I can't?. It does exist in part 25, perhaps that's what you're remembering.

Try 23.233:

Sec. 23.233

Directional stability and control.

[(a) A 90 degree cross-component of wind velocity, demonstrated to be safe for taxiing, takeoff, and landing must be established and must be not less than 0.2

.]

My memory did serve.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

YES, you CAN GO OVER IT, no biggie.

If it's beyond the max x-wind comp, the plane will drift downwind of the center line on final, even if you crab.

I would HIGHLY recommend going up with a good CFI to experience this and learn how to work with it.

 

[gismo]

Try 23.233:
My memory did serve.

Ah, "cross-component" didn't match my search for crosswind. I thought there had to be a requirement in there somewhere. AFaIK many POHs list a MDCW that's at or just slightly above 20% of Vso. Thanks.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Nothing wrong with using that rule when you are still building time. but as others have noted it is the maximum demonstrated during certification. There are techniques that will allow you to land in considerably higher winds. We were called to PASN one night (Runway 18/36 ) with winds 081 @ 45 gusting to 60. Not fun but it was worth a shot at least. We started high and slightly downwind and fought a slip all the way down to avoid the high ground along the East side of the runway. We made it on the second try. Leaving was even more exciting.

 

[ateamer]

Heck, the M20J I'm training for commercial in has a 12 knot demonstrated crosswind component. I am fairly average and landing with a 16 knot direct crosswind was a non-issue. In a 172 with a 15 knot demnstrated component, landing with a 20 knot crosswind was more work, but it had plenty left.

During certification, how much effort is made to find really stiff crosswinds? Do they take what they get or will they fly hours out of their way to really give the plane a workout?

 

[Legiox]

Have a question for you guys/girls with some experience.

How is taxing in gusty conditions after landing? I know the procedures concerning aileron and elevator movement, while taxing in strong crosswinds. I have taxied in gusty conditions before, but nothing like some of you have been describing. Would there be a limit for you concerning light GA aircraft dealing with this and the possibility of flipping?

 

[EdFred]

Have a question for you guys/girls with some experience.

How is taxing in gusty conditions after landing? I know the procedures concerning aileron and elevator movement, while taxing in strong crosswinds. I have taxied in gusty conditions before, but nothing like some of you have been describing. Would there be a limit for you concerning light GA aircraft dealing with this and the possibility of flipping?

It's going to have to be approaching tropical storm/hurricane force winds to tip my airplane - Piper Comanche.

 

[tinerj]

I believe the Cessna 150 max demonstrated cross wind component is 15 mph.

The true max is when you run out of aileron and rudder and skill. I took off is 24G32, and landed in something above 15, but never had the feeling that it was about to get away from me.

 

[Silvaire]

...I am a 30 hour student and have about 70 touch n go's with 20+ crosswinds. It has been my favorite part of training so far...

You know that a 20 kt crosswind component means that the wind is blowing 20 kts at exactly 90 degrees to your landing direction right? So either you are doing a lot of cross wind practice or whoever built the airport pointed the runway in the wrong direction.

 

[EdFred]

You know that a 20 kt crosswind component means that the wind is blowing 20 kts at exactly 90 degrees to your landing direction right? So either you are doing a lot of cross wind practice or whoever built the airport pointed the runway in the wrong direction.

Maybe he meant the number of crosswind landings, and not the velocity.

 

[Silvaire]

Oh yea, okay I see that now.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ah, "cross-component" didn't match my search for crosswind.

I had to get the AC on certification flight testing, search on crosswind, and find the line which said that was done IAW with 23.233. Ain't easy, sometimes.

 

[poadeleted20]

Nothing wrong with using that rule when you are still building time. but as others have noted it is the maximum demonstrated during certification. There are techniques that will allow you to land in considerably higher winds. We were called to PASN one night (Runway 18/36 ) with winds 081 @ 45 gusting to 60. Not fun but it was worth a shot at least. We started high and slightly downwind and fought a slip all the way down to avoid the high ground along the East side of the runway. We made it on the second try. Leaving was even more exciting.

I'm guessing that was done in a C-130, not a C-172.

 

[poadeleted20]

During certification, how much effort is made to find really stiff crosswinds? Do they take what they get or will they fly hours out of their way to really give the plane a workout?

It's a square that needs filling. Note Gismo's comment about how the book figure usually isn't much more than 20% of Vs0 and decide for yourself.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I'm guessing that was done in a C-130, not a C-172.

No, a Luscombe 8...... Yes a HC-130H. I should have stated that. But the technique works for anything.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, a Luscombe 8...... Yes a HC-130H. I should have stated that. But the technique works for anything.

...within the limits of the aircraft. I wouldn't want anyone to think that landing a light GA airplane in a 45G60 wind 80 degrees off the runway direction was anything but insanity (unless the runway was really wide and you landed across it ).

 

[Threefingeredjack]

...within the limits of the aircraft. I wouldn't want anyone to think that landing a light GA airplane in a 45G60 wind 80 degrees off the runway direction was anything but insanity (unless the runway was really wide and you landed across it ).

Absolutely. I should have thrown in a disclaimer and further identified the type. The technique is valid, within the limits of the aircraft

I should have further stated that this was not a normal operation, but an emergency medivac of a victim with a severe skull injury, all the crew were appraised of the conditions, and we all agreed that no attempts would be made if it appeared the outcome was in doubt. Our first pass was a feasibility test, ( There is a steep knoll to the east of the field and we were concerned about the propagation of a rotor and where we would encounter it on approach.), and the second a full on landing attempt.

 

[gismo]

Have a question for you guys/girls with some experience.

How is taxing in gusty conditions after landing? I know the procedures concerning aileron and elevator movement, while taxing in strong crosswinds. I have taxied in gusty conditions before, but nothing like some of you have been describing. Would there be a limit for you concerning light GA aircraft dealing with this and the possibility of flipping?

In the 800 lb taildragger I fly, I'm usually more concerned about the ability to taxi than to land. In the "good old days" when aerodromes were just a big nearly circular area without anything to hit you could almost always land directly into the wind and AFaIK it wasn't uncommon to have a couple fellow pilots grab a strut and keep the airplane right side up while maneuvering on the ground in high winds.

In the 3400 lb empty weight Baron I fly I can pretty much ignore the wind while taxiing (still have to pay attention when opening the main cabin door) even when the wind makes for challenging landings. The worst crosswind I've experienced was at a fuel stop on the north side of OKC and while taxiing wasn't a problem, filling the tanks proved difficult as the wind was rocking the airplane significantly at the pump and kept blowing fuel out of the fillers.