Crossing a Large body of water & over CA Airspace

glassjames

glassjames

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Sep 16, 2013
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4
Location
Duluth, MN
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Display name:
FlyYonder
I have read both view points on this.
Currently i am seeking my complex in a Arrow and doing so that i will be able to commute KAFJ to KESC occasionally

So my question or rather questions (2) are

1. Does flight following count as ATC control if flying over the small corner of Canadian airspace near Detroit? Box says Canadian airspace above 12,500 requires ATC control.
2.Would you guys fly the 23 minutes across Lake Michigan at the other crossing, in a single engine airplane?

The guy who is giving me my complex says he does it often. Said I may want a Life Jacket or some sort of a survival suit, though neither does he carry.

If you have Foreflight and map this trip you will see what mean about both the Canadian airplane and the Lake Michigan crossing.


About me,
100 hour pilot who will be buying a Arrow to make the trips in semi decent time and build retract time that will eventually help me move into a twin.
Thanks all for your thoughts, advise etc
 
File a flight plan and you will get a handoff between the controllers.I usually wear a pair of suspenders ,flotation when I cross the lakes,makes me feel better.
 
I'd cross in a single engine, but make as much of the crossing as high and within gliding range of the shore as I could.

At 23 min, most of the transit should be within gliding range of one shore or the other.
 
I'm a big chicken so I cross between the Sandusky and Windsor VORs on the Lake Erie crossing.

As far as Lake Michigan, yeah , altitude and chart a path to stay as close to land as possible. Personally I don't think I'd do the Lake Michigan crossing but that is my own comfort level.
 
I've crossed Lake Michigan around 100 times, 90% of the time at LDM --> MTW anywhere from 600 AWL to 10,000 AWL in a piston single.

If it's my time, it's my time. I wasn't going to deal with 80kt headwinds and since there's no terrain to jumble the air, it was pretty smooth down low.

That corner of Canada, you're going to be talking to Cleveland Center not Canada.
 
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EdFred said:
That corner of Canada, you're going to be talking to Cleveland Center not Canada.
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Depends on how high you are. I've done the Lake Erie crossing many times and never talked to Center. It's likely to be Cleveland Approach to maybe Toledo Approach (depending on exact route) to Detroit Approach.
 
frfly172 said:
File a flight plan and you will get a handoff between the controllers.I usually wear a pair of suspenders ,flotation when I cross the lakes,makes me feel better.
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Filing a VFR flight plan does not mean you'll get handoffs between controllers.
 
glassjames said:
1. Does flight following count as ATC control if flying over the small corner of Canadian airspace near Detroit? Box says Canadian airspace above 12,500 requires ATC control.
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If you're talking to ATC with an assigned 4-digit code and a filed flight plan, you're covered.

2.Would you guys fly the 23 minutes across Lake Michigan at the other crossing, in a single engine airplane?
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I'd have water survival equipment in the summer, and another route in the winter.
 
glassjames said:
I have read both view points on this.
Currently i am seeking my complex in a Arrow and doing so that i will be able to commute KAFJ to KESC occasionally

So my question or rather questions (2) are

1. Does flight following count as ATC control if flying over the small corner of Canadian airspace near Detroit? Box says Canadian airspace above 12,500 requires ATC control.
2.Would you guys fly the 23 minutes across Lake Michigan at the other crossing, in a single engine airplane?
Click to expand...

For #1, if you're crossing into Canada, I think you'll need to file an IFR or DVFR flight plan. For #2, it's up to you and your comfort level. An airplane that I have flown was successfully ditched into Lake Michigan, but the pilot died from hypothermia and/or drowning. I've decided that a cold bath is not the way I want to go.

If you fly over the Toledo VOR and the Beaver Island airport (and go high enough), you'll eliminate both problems.

Also, if your "commute" needs to happen on a schedule, be aware that a significant portion of your route is going through the Great Lakes ice machine. Be flexible, or delay your commuting until you have a FIKI airplane with options for getting out of the ice too (like turbos).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
For #1, if you're crossing into Canada, I think you'll need to file an IFR or DVFR flight plan.
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Nah just an opened VFR flight plan and flight following with a discreet 4 digit code. Often I will say "Canada overflight" with my flight following request so they maybe will take pity on me,
 
azure said:
Depends on how high you are. I've done the Lake Erie crossing many times and never talked to Center. It's likely to be Cleveland Approach to maybe Toledo Approach (depending on exact route) to Detroit Approach.
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The one time I was a bit more east of the islands I got Cleveland Center. Closer to over the top of the islands I was on with Cleveland, Detroit, and Selfridge approach controllers in order.
 
At 12500 you'll be talking to center
 
ChrisK said:
The one time I was a bit more east of the islands I got Cleveland Center. Closer to over the top of the islands I was on with Cleveland, Detroit, and Selfridge approach controllers in order.
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Yeah, I didn't check the OP's point of origin. If he goes direct he'll be crossing east of Point Pelee and well north of Cleveland Approach's airspace. So he might get Cleveland Center.

About flight plans: no you don't need to file DVFR, and in fact I don't think a DVFR flight plan is even appropriate unless you're in an ADIZ, which this airspace isn't. You can file VFR, or you can file an IFR flight plan with "VFR" in the altitude block, if you can't or don't want to accept an IFR clearance.
 
It appears you can do the route without crossing water but for a few moments without adding 10% to the trip length by doglegging around the tip of the lake to the southwest and flying a bit to the East to cross the northern body of water so Maybe I would explore that first.

That water is not survivable most of the year so its a toss up. 23 minutes is not bad when you are not likely to have an accident in 10,000 hrs. I would do it a few times but I do not think I would causally cross it every day or every week for long periods of time as each crossing is tempting fate.

To the rest of your assumptions:

A faster plane reduces the risk by reducing the time also other airplanes might have a better power off glide ration also improving the risk of taking a drink.

The Arrow is a rather expensive plane and goes about 135 knots. You can get a faster 155 knots in a Comanche 250 for much less investment. Still relatively easy to fly and the fuel consumption works out to be the same cost per mile.

Flight following does not help as they drop pilots all the time and never call out an emergency rescue.
 
I've never been dropped from flight following in Michigan ever.
 
uqu8a2u4.jpg

I was thinking something like this.
 
EdFred said:
I've never been dropped from flight following in Michigan ever.
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I have -- many times, usually at the edge of some TRACON's airspace. I was even once told by Saginaw Approach that "we do not have handoff capabilities". :rolleyes:

But I wouldn't expect it to happen over Lake Michigan as long as I was high enough to be seen by ZMP (or ZAU, if over the southern half).
 
EdFred said:
I've never been dropped from flight following in Michigan ever.
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I've gotten dropped over AZ/NM over mountains and stopped for fuel and called them and they said they do not initiate any emergency procedures when a pilots drops contact on flight following unless there is a flight plan also logged. But that is probably different than what we are talking about here.
 
I would cross as high as possible, i.e. FL19, FL20, and pay attention to winds aloft. That way, I should be able to glide to land on one side or the other.
 
Thanks guys for all the excellent feedback. Very useful information and food for thought.

I am new to the forum and this was my first post, so hello everyone! :)

While I am sure hopeful that a well maintained plane should not have any issues in the 23 minutes or so i would expect to be over the lake. I would only be able to regret it but once i am sure.

I may chose a shorter crossing point up closer to the Mackinac Bridge. Ok if it adds another few minutes to my flight I suppose that just means i will be building those hours that i will eventually need later to own that twin, a little faster. Thanks all Jim
 
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glassjames said:
I have read both view points on this.
Currently i am seeking my complex in a Arrow and doing so that i will be able to commute KAFJ to KESC occasionally

So my question or rather questions (2) are

1. Does flight following count as ATC control if flying over the small corner of Canadian airspace near Detroit? Box says Canadian airspace above 12,500 requires ATC control.
2.Would you guys fly the 23 minutes across Lake Michigan at the other crossing, in a single engine airplane?

The guy who is giving me my complex says he does it often. Said I may want a Life Jacket or some sort of a survival suit, though neither does he carry.

If you have Foreflight and map this trip you will see what mean about both the Canadian airplane and the Lake Michigan crossing.


About me,
100 hour pilot who will be buying a Arrow to make the trips in semi decent time and build retract time that will eventually help me move into a twin.
Thanks all for your thoughts, advise etc
Click to expand...

Just go ahead and get the twin. With 60hrs TT and no ME rating, my insurance in my Travelair was cheaper than a Bonanza.
 
skidoo said:
I would cross as high as possible, i.e. FL19, FL20, and pay attention to winds aloft. That way, I should be able to glide to land on one side or the other.
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In an Arrow? How the hell is he gonna get up there? The things have enough trouble getting to 14,500.
 
glassjames said:
Thanks guys for all the excellent feedback. Very useful information and food for thought.

I am new to the forum and this was my first post, so hello everyone! :)

While I am sure hopeful that a well maintained plane should not have any issues in the 23 minutes or so i would expect to be over the lake. I would only be able to regret it but once i am sure.

I may chose a shorter crossing point up closer to the Mackinac Bridge. Ok if it adds another few minutes to my flight I suppose that just means i will be building those hours that i will eventually need later to own that twin, a little faster. Thanks all Jim
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You don't need to build time to get a twin, you need decent training. Buy your last plane first and train in it from as early on as possible. It's the least expensive route to go and has you at maximum proficiency the soonest.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I've gotten dropped over AZ/NM over mountains and stopped for fuel and called them and they said they do not initiate any emergency procedures when a pilots drops contact on flight following unless there is a flight plan also logged. But that is probably different than what we are talking about here.
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Umm... boy that is disturbing, I'd have been on the horn to the supervisor of that facility the next business day. It is contrary to the stated behavior of the ATC handbook. Any unexpected loss of radar or radio contact, requires action.

Further, I don't think it's readily apparent to a radar controller whether a VFR has filed a plan or not. That can be retrieved later once the response has started, but...
 
For the Lake Erie portion, this is a crossing I have made more times than I can count over the past 25 plus years.
Going South, when Flint hands you to Detroit (or if you are not talking to anyone call Detroit) ask Detroit for Lake Services. They will assign you a squawk which takes care of the legal stuff for clipping the corner of Canada.
Watch the traffic around the Windsor VOR, tends to be busy. 8500 and up puts you head on into airliners coming in to Metro. Lower is usually better,
Aim for roughly 5 miles West of Point Pelee, then to Pelee Island. Then you can slide slightly West a few miles which gives you the Bass Islands on your right and Kelly Island straight ahead, then Put-In-Bay and finally Port Clinton.
Above 5000 and hopping near the islands, land is always in reach.

Now for the lucky ones who never get dumped off by ATC - good on ya. But I have been dumped, in Canadian airspace in the middle of Lake Erie about 8-9 miles from the USA, and told to squawk 1200 and 'go fish' about half the time when VFR. Now nothing is stopping me from calling Cleveland but usually I just go on my way, whistling and tapping the yoke in time with the Canadian brass. (hey your Honor, I did exactly what ATC told me to do)
OTOH, if the controller got lucky last night I get the full monte and handed off to the the dulcet tones of lady Cleveland.
Going North - Cleveland has never dumped me. But Detroit controllers must be ugly and never get lucky because they sound less than gruntled when I call in.

A couple of last cautions.
A VFR flight plan is a glorified flight following. It does not offer much, if any, help over simply requesting Lake Services once you approach the lake.
The weather at lower altitudes over this corner of the lake is often MVFR to plain old IFR even when the sky is clear blue where you are. The lake water pushes the dew point up and the temperature down. Be wary.
If the Lake is socked in you can 'usually' go around the West side of the Detroit B, pass just North of Toledo and then a few miles below the South shore going East and still have some semblance of VFR. Adds no more than 15 minutes to your route.
 
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Just tell him how to use your imaginary money theory so he can have it tomorrow.

Henning said:
You don't need to build time to get a twin, you need decent training. Buy your last plane first and train in it from as early on as possible. It's the least expensive route to go and has you at maximum proficiency the soonest.
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I suppose the biggest obstacle i found to my twin was insurance. And not talking just about cost either, I am sure however it would be very very expensive. I made a call to my Insurance company and then to Avemco and talked to the folks there.

I asked the question after explaining my current status as a pilot. Long story short from both companies. IF they could insure me now the cost would be very high. She or they did not say I could not get insurance, but that i would have to pay very dearly for it.

And that I would receive no discount from that high rate until i had received 500TT and 250 with retracts and a Instrument rating and obviously a ME. That i would require 25 to 50 dual depending on the aircraft and 25 to 50 solo before passengers.Plus a little other gobilty gook about simulators One engine out and this and that (this is what they told me)

Current sitrep
I will be working in the Washington, PA area and I own a home in Duluth, MN and board my horses in Escanaba, MI so I have need to travel on weekends and for vacation. Commercial air travel is a ugly mess these days. So assuming at best i will be flying every other weekend(optimistically) and the flight time round trip is 7 hours (optimistically) thats 182 hours a year. Throw in a few hours local for proficiency, training, or just having fun, and i round it up to 200 hours a year or so. Given the information from the insurance person, I will need to fly 2.5 to 3 years just to have a decent rate.

Perhaps at some point sooner I may go ahead and take the leap. but only after I have the confidence that it is the right next step for me skill wise.

Excellent advice everyone. I recognize the fact there is many years and tens of thousands of hours of experience in these post and I respect that.

Thanks all for the info.
 
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