Cross-Wind Determination

jnmeade

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Jim Meade
Can someone cite the references for the source of wind speeds in cross-wind component calculations?
V= Vref(H/Href)0.142
Put another way, are the wind speeds that matter those obtained from the airport anemometer and announced on AWOS/ASOS, typically 10m AGL, or those at the wing or other height of the aircraft at touchdown?
References or citations gratefully accepted.
TIA
 
No idea what you are asking. But all the airplane cares about is what it feels.

As if the airplane can feel.

IOW, an anemometer a mile or so away from the airplane is approximate at best.
 
It's alright, Greg, I'm just poking the hornet's nest, as always? :)
You answered it in one sense - let's see if anyone agrees with you. ;)
 
Not sure what you're asking either, but I'll take a stab at it. The wind speeds that matter are the ones you encounter on the ride down final. The AWOS/ASOS is just taking into account of what's happening at the location of the anemometer, which could be partially or fully blocked by trees. Mechanical turb coming off trees or rooftops will have to be treated as necessary down final.
 
Technically a properly certified AWOS isn't supposed to have things like mechanical blockages around it, shade from buildings, etc... but there's the paper certifications and installation requirements and then there's the real world.
 
I' m lost on what the question is. It sounds like, "which is important, in a xwind landing? The wind reported at some location away from the runway, or the wind you are flying in when you land?" But that would make no sense so it can't be that.
 
I' m lost on what the question is. It sounds like, "which is important, in a xwind landing? The wind reported at some location away from the runway, or the wind you are flying in when you land?" But that would make no sense so it can't be that.
Does it matter when the OP openly admits he's trolling?
 
What matters when you are flying is the crosswind at the time and place where you touch down.

Whatever wind that was blowing a couple hundred meters away a few minutes ago is a nice reference to give you an idea what to expect, but is not likely to be the actual crosswind that you encounter at touchdown. The theoretical variation due to distance above ground is just another variable in a long chain of variables.

Even in a wide open space - like the middle of Lake Huron - miles away from the nearest tree or obstruction - surface winds can blow in streaks and have significant variation over the space of tens of meters or so. (more obvious when the wind is lighter) The variation in velocity and direction with height is also very variable in real life - that's why you have to change the twist of sails to match the actual conditions and not what is in some textbook if you want to win a race.
 
Even in a wide open space - like the middle of Lake Huron - miles away from the nearest tree or obstruction - surface winds can blow in streaks and have significant variation over the space of tens of meters or so. (more obvious when the wind is lighter) The variation in velocity and direction with height is also very variable in real life - that's why you have to change the twist of sails to match the actual conditions and not what is in some textbook if you want to win a race.

It's crazy how wind doesn't act like a straight wall in the middle of lakes/oceans. When I did catamaran racing in high school I would look for variations in the darkness of the oncoming water. You could easily see the "rivers" of wind blowing across the lake.

Just wish seeing wind while landing was that easy. :D
 
It only matters when I run out of rudder, aileron and crab angle and can't keep centerline. Then it may be too much crosswind.
This. Do what you gotta do to stay straight. If you can't then find another runway. If it's a wide try turning a little into the wind.
 
It only matters when I run out of rudder, aileron and crab angle and can't keep centerline. Then it may be too much crosswind.
True. As long as I'm lined up with the runway in use and the Santa Ana winds aren't blowing at 35 kts, I just deal with it. If I'm on the rudder stop, banked crazily into the wind, and the runway's still moving sideways beneath me, then discretion's the better part of valor and I'll use another runway, or another airport.
 
It only matters when I run out of rudder, aileron and crab angle and can't keep centerline. Then it may be too much crosswind.

This makes sense to me, but I wondered about something. The POH for the airplane has specs doesn't it, for the maximum allowable crosswind? I'll assume like other specs it is based on a new, clean plane, but in any case is that number then normally about the same as the point where you would run out of rudder, etc.?

There are no real other considerations when they determine the max X wind?
 
This makes sense to me, but I wondered about something. The POH for the airplane has specs doesn't it, for the maximum allowable crosswind? I'll assume like other specs it is based on a new, clean plane, but in any case is that number then normally about the same as the point where you would run out of rudder, etc.?

There are no real other considerations when they determine the max X wind?
Most spam cans have a max demonstrated crosswind, not max allowed. It's been awhile since I looked but I think the max demonstrated tends to be the minimum required for certification.

On a side note, the typical Cessna/Piper/whatever will handle a lot more than max demonstrated when the yoke actuator is on his/her/it's game.
 
"Allowed" or "Demonstrated"?

Ahh..thanks. As a student, with different information coming in, it can get confusing.
On the flying clubs checklist, first page it is written "X wind limit 17 kts" which is what I see most often.

But as you point out, after reading your response I went into the POH, and the it states (I haven't found other references to this in the POH, but it is an old pdf and not searchable, so very hard to find things sometimes) that there is a sign "in full view of the pilot: demonstrated cross wind component" which is also given as 17 kts.

I'm not sure I understand precisely what "demonstrated" means, can guess it is what has been shown to be ok, but not stating this as a limit? I see Clark1961 has posted more on this...

Most spam cans have a max demonstrated crosswind, not max allowed. It's been awhile since I looked but I think the max demonstrated tends to be the minimum required for certification.

On a side note, the typical Cessna/Piper/whatever will handle a lot more than max demonstrated when the yoke actuator is on his/her/it's game.

My example is for the Piper PA28 Cherokee warrior (1982). Now I'm a little more confused, the little I found other than in the checklist for the club for this plane just states that there is a sign (see my answer above) which is a sign in the cockpit (that I have overlooked I guess) but you are saying this means to be checked out on this plane one would have to demonstrate landing with a 17 knot crosswind?

Is that the meaning of "demonstrated" in this context?
 
From the 1968 Cessna Cardinal Owner's Manual

"The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than airplane limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15MPH can be handled safely."

Remeber, this is a 1968 Owner's Manual, which is all of 64 pages in length, half of which is spent explaining how to wash the airplane. From what I understand POH's are generally much more detailed.
 
The origin of the question is the fact that many herbicide labels, which have the force of law, restrict application at more than a set windspeed, often 10 mph. If asked to tell what the windspeed is, many people will reference weather forecasters or weather reports, which most often use ASOS/AWOS readings which are usually based on anemometers 10m (about 33 feet) AGL.
However, the wind at 10m is not the wind at 1 meter, which is often the height of the spray boom and the place where the wind restriction on the label is applicable.
Here is a discussion of how to extrapolate wind speeds:
http://belfortinstrument.com/height-wind-measurements-ground/
The bottom line is the herbicide sprayer is probably perfectly safe to spray assuming a <10mph wind speed when ASOS reported winds are 13 knots or 15 mph at 10m.
Now back to airplanes. At what altitude or height AGL does an airplane respond to the listed crosswind component? Is it when the wheels touch the surface? If so, it seems likely that the real wind the airplane feels is less, perhaps considerably less, than what the ASOS is reporting.
I was looking for information on the height of the aircraft when the demonstrated crosswind info was applicable (is it at touchdown?) and was curious to see if there was any discussion in the aviation industry about the known difference between wind speeds at 10m and at the demonstrated crosswind altitude (whatever that is).
In addition to the Belfort post there used to be a post by Iowa State University which addressed the spread of odor from a hog confinement facility and talked about the same issue of wind speed at various AGL. I don't find it right. Probably new hogs don't smell. :)
 
This. Do what you gotta do to stay straight. If you can't then find another runway. If it's a wide try turning a little into the wind.
And This..Don't get hung up on numbers, their origin, point of measurement, blah blah...If the airplane doesn't want to do it, don't force it. It will let you know...listen to it.
 
Ahh..thanks. As a student, with different information coming in, it can get confusing.

<snippage happened>
My example is for the Piper PA28 Cherokee warrior (1982). Now I'm a little more confused, the little I found other than in the checklist for the club for this plane just states that there is a sign (see my answer above) which is a sign in the cockpit (that I have overlooked I guess) but you are saying this means to be checked out on this plane one would have to demonstrate landing with a 17 knot crosswind?

Is that the meaning of "demonstrated" in this context?
Demonstrated means that during certification testing of the aircraft someone landed safely with a crosswind component of at least 17 knots.

These days some folks or flight schools are choosing to impose their own operating limitations. In particular it seems to be popular to impose the max demonstrated crosswind as max allowed. As I have previously observed, this practice leaves a lot of capability unusable. In some areas winds aren't much of a problem. Fly in Wyoming much or out on the high plains you won't be flying much if you are worried about a strong breeze.
 
was curious to see if there was any discussion in the aviation industry about the known difference between wind speeds at 10m and at the demonstrated crosswind altitude (whatever that is).
But it's not "known".

It may be approximated by a correct version of the equation given which may be useful model for some applications over some limited range of heights, but that model will not match the actual change in wind speed with height for any given day. And, even in theory, the .142 exponent in V= Vref*(H/Href)^0.142 (fixed it for you) can vary from .06 to .6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient#Engineering
 
Demonstrated means that during certification testing of the aircraft someone landed safely with a crosswind component of at least 17 knots.

These days some folks or flight schools are choosing to impose their own operating limitations. In particular it seems to be popular to impose the max demonstrated crosswind as max allowed. As I have previously observed, this practice leaves a lot of capability unusable. In some areas winds aren't much of a problem. Fly in Wyoming much or out on the high plains you won't be flying much if you are worried about a strong breeze.

Thanks. That was my first guess about what it meant. And it is very good to know. I'm going to ask my CFI to clarify for me if the club is using it as a limit or not, and what he recommends. I fly out of an airport that very often does have crosswind.
 
Thanks. That was my first guess about what it meant. And it is very good to know. I'm going to ask my CFI to clarify for me if the club is using it as a limit or not, and what he recommends. I fly out of an airport that very often does have crosswind.
A dialogue with your instructor about winds is a good thing. It is common to have crosswind and total wind limitations set for solo flight. Those limitations are typically increased as training progresses.
 
In response to the original post, the wind speeds that matter the most are those at the point a couple feet off the ground down to the ground. That's where you need to be able to point your nose down the centerline (more or less) as you are about to touch down. But as you approach on final, those are just as important, because if you're side slipping for the crosswind, you need to have enough rudder to point it down the centerline. Or if you crab, and kick it out, that the plane will straighten out and you're not landing sideways. If you can't point it down the centerline on final, don't even bother attempting to land, go around and find a better runway. But to calculate the crosswind component, the only available source is ATIS/AWOS/ASOS/Tower wind check, so we use that but always know that it can change at any time.

Keep in mind that even if the approach seems doable, as you get closer to the ground, the wind can, and often does, change (picks up or dies down), and it may go beyond your airplane's limits, SO ALWAYS BE READY TO GO-AROUND!!!
 
Glad to see there was some discussion of what is embodied in the concept of cross-wind component and hope some of the newbies picked up a few things to chew on.
 
Glad to see there was some discussion of what is embodied in the concept of cross-wind component and hope some of the newbies picked up a few things to chew on.
If they chew on them we'll have to repair or replace them...
 
Most spam cans have a max demonstrated crosswind, not max allowed. It's been awhile since I looked but I think the max demonstrated tends to be the minimum required for certification.

On a side note, the typical Cessna/Piper/whatever will handle a lot more than max demonstrated when the yoke actuator is on his/her/it's game.

And if it's an Experimental, you get to author your very own POH and put an arbitrary figure down. :)

(Not really; you get a sense of what others have done to get a baseline, and see what she'll take during flight testing.)
 
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