Crash near Palmer Lake, CO

Coloradokevin

Coloradokevin

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Coloradokevin
Just talked to a friend who was in the area and saw the aftermath of this crash. Still very little known about the incident on the news. I hate to speculate, but any of you other Colorado folks can also attest to the fact that the weather in the Front Range was FAR from ideal for flying today... 50 knots and greater surface winds, LLWS, numerous PIREPS for severe turbulence, reports of -300fpm or greater mountain waves at fairly low altitudes, and so on.

Still, I hate to see the aviation community lose another member.

http://kdvr.com/2016/03/02/single-engine-plane-crashes-near-palmer-lake/
 
Listening to the radio today and heard a Lear driver report +20 knot increase in IAS on short final at KAPA. It's rough out there. Sad to hear about anyone going in, but with these winds it's not surprising. Be careful out there!
 
pikespeakmtnman said:
The comments on the news story that I linked included this:

Katy Davis [COLOR=rgba(0, 39, 59, 0.34902)] David_COS • [COLOR=rgba(0, 39, 59, 0.34902)]8 hours ago[/COLOR][/COLOR]
It's a 1928 Travel Air 4000 biplane out of Longmont. The rest hasn't been made public yet.
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A Google search of that name shows photos of someone by that name flying an older aircraft. Plus, her other comments made it seem that she was rather upset with the news posting the pictures of the aircraft to begin with. I'm only speculating here, but I'm guessing that she probably had some knowledge of this situation, and/or who was involved.

And, based on the information she posted, I'm pretty sure I've figured out what plane was involved and who was flying it. Posting that information in public here before it is officially released would probably be inappropriate.
 
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The Press holds names until next of kin are notified, usually. I try never to post names until they've hit a couple of traditional news sources.

That's usually a decent indication that nobody in the direct family is going to be shocked to find a name on a crash thread before they've been contacted by the Sheriff and offered counseling or help from clergy or trauma professionals.
 
denverpilot said:
The Press holds names until next of kin are notified, usually. I try never to post names until they've hit a couple of traditional news sources.

That's usually a decent indication that nobody in the direct family is going to be shocked to find a name on a crash thread before they've been contacted by the Sheriff and offered counseling or help from clergy or trauma professionals.
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Yeah, that's why I'm withholding, but I'm 99% on this, just based on what I've put together in Google searches.
 
I figured some here would be able to put the pieces together. Prayers to those of you who knew the victim(s).
 
This just blows my mind. Why on earth were they flying that airplane in those winds? Were the winds unforecasted/suddenly showed up, or was it like that most of the day? You'd have a hell of a time trying to taxi a TA in those winds let alone safely land it.

I've been caught in the air in the Waco with winds above 20 kts and that scared the crap out of me. I can't imagine trying to fly an old biplane in 40-60 kts winds.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This just blows my mind. Why on earth were they flying that airplane in those winds? Were the winds unforecasted/suddenly showed up, or was it like that most of the day? You'd have a hell of a time trying to taxi a TA in those winds let alone safely land it.
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It was windy and turbulent starting the day before. Yesterday it just got worse. Like you, I can't see how they were even able to taxi the airplane. Longmont and Palmer Lake are right up against the foothills, where the winds must have been especially intense.

Also, a fast-moving band of dark clouds rolled across Denver between about 8 and 9am yesterday, from west to east. Centennial Airport got a small amount of hail. It was not exactly a "Hey, let's go flying!" kind of morning.
 
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Sorry to hear this.

It was blowing hard all day yesterday. I'm sure someone here knows how to look up past METARs and PIREPs, but I believe I saw forecasts on Storm of 35 mph surface winds in Denver yesterday. So winds aloft would have been vicious.

When that happens around here I find something else to do besides flying.
 
yeah, yesterday was very strange weather even for Springtime in the Rockies. I drove from Golden to just south of APA about 6 am and it was fairly benign weather, but looked out the window around 8 am and it looked like a major storm blew in. An hour later it blew out, but gusty strong wings all day long.
 
Coloradokevin said:
I'm pretty sure I've figured out what plane was involved and who was flying it. Posting that information in public here before it is officially released would probably be inappropriate.
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Yeah, if her information is correct, it's pretty easy to find out who was flying it... even found a picture of the aircraft. If that was it, wow... beautiful bird. Very sad. Not sure why they were flying in those conditions, though.
 
To give an idea of how weird/bad that cloud looked, both of us pilots at the office went outside and looked at it and said, "What is that? A front? Mountain wave? Check out that rotor cloud over there..." We gawked at it for a few minutes. We both ended with, "Don't think I would want to be anywhere near that thing."
 
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Cajun_Flyer said:
Yeah, if her information is correct, it's pretty easy to find out who was flying it... even found a picture of the aircraft. If that was it, wow... beautiful bird. Very sad. Not sure why they were flying in those conditions, though.
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Yeah, other news sources have mentioned the same aircraft as that person quoted above, but it's not clear where they got that information. Like you said though, it wasn't hard to connect the dots with that information (the plane was a bit more unique than a C172).

I was originally supposed to fly yesterday, but cancelled those plans the day before due to a forecast that strongly suggested that flying would not be feasible. My local airport was reporting a 38G50 knot wind at noon, and it was at least that windy at my house the entire morning.
 
denverpilot said:
To give an idea of how weird/bad that cloud looked, both of us pilots at the office went outside and looked at it and said, "What is that? A front? Mountain wave? Check out that rotor cloud over there..." We gawked at it for a few minutes. We both ended with, "Don't think I would want to be anywhere near that thing."
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I drove into town about 0900 yesterday and encountered high winds and snow pellets. There was a big dark cloud to the southwest in the direction of Palmer Lake.
 
I looked out over the mountains and foothills in the morning and the clouds had the blurred/smeared edges that are classic with high winds aloft. I saw swirling snow and rain bands coming off the foothills.

Not sure how it looked down south but as someone said, Palmer Lake is right up against the foothills. Possible strong downdrafts and rotors if winds were as high there as they were here.
 
I was supposed to go up yesterday for a xc to Maine, but surface winds were 22 mph and gusts were 45 mph. I struggled to drive my truck down the turnpike on the way home from work, so I can't imagine how brutal attempting to fly would have been. Had a little plane in Plymouth flip due to gusts on takeoff the other day. Most of the country seems like a windy mess this winter.
 
Winds were known at time of flight, but that isn't always the case. I got caught in unforecast high surface winds TWICE at night that should have been winds calm conditions both times (Duat and WxBrief used on both trips). Things aren't always as expected and you need to adjust. I always have PLENTY of fuel on board for TRUE alternates. Here in West Texas, choices are wide-spread and you may need to choose an alternate that is REALLY far from the original destination. We get plenty of wind here and 20G32 direct isn't a problem ... but 39G55 will be ...
 
It should not have been a surprise to the pilots. High winds were forecast all last week, and high winds existed all last week.
 
Coloradokevin said:
Looks like my initial suspicion was correct. Pilot Dan Murray (Longmont) and an unidentified passenger were killed in this crash of a 1928 Curtis Wright Travel Air 4000 biplane.

Sounds like he was well known in the aviation community.

http://www.timescall.com/longmont-local-news/ci_29597274/plane-crash-kills-renowned-longmont-pilot
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Ugh. An irreplaceable piece of aviation history, gone. :(

You have to wonder. By his description and reputation, he could fly anything, in any conditions. This time it looks like it bit him.

RIP.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Ugh. An irreplaceable piece of aviation history, gone. :(

You have to wonder. By his description and reputation, he could fly anything, in any conditions. This time it looks like it bit him.

RIP.
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What makes even less sense than him flying that day is that he had a passenger with him. Really makes you wonder. Maybe the toxicology report will have some answers.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What makes even less sense than him flying that day is that he had a passenger with him. Really makes you wonder. Maybe the toxicology report will have some answers.
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Article said he was heading to a vintage aircraft fly in. Sometimes its all about pressing ahead to meet others expectations.

Looking over the number of CFIT and VFR pilot loss of control after flight into IMC accidents, seems we humans have an enormous capacity to rationalize things sometimes.
 
GRG55 said:
Article said he was heading to a vintage aircraft fly in. Sometimes its all about pressing ahead to meet others expectations...
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So maybe he thought as long as he could take off, he'd fly away from the winds? That's a tough feat in an 85kt airplane.
 
GRG55 said:
Article said he was heading to a vintage aircraft fly in. Sometimes its all about pressing ahead to meet others expectations.

Looking over the number of CFIT and VFR pilot loss of control after flight into IMC accidents, seems we humans have an enormous capacity to rationalize things sometimes.
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I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that part of the article. Sometimes people just convince themselves that they can do something they cannot simply because the destination is important to them.
 
Coloradokevin said:
I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that part of the article. Sometimes people just convince themselves that they can do something they cannot simply because the destination is important to them.
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As others have noted, the deceased pilot apparently gave in to destination fixation:

Howard Morgan, president of the Hangar Owners Association at Vance Brand Municipal Airport, confirmed Friday that Murray died in the plane crash on his way to an antique airplay fly-in.
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It's a shame that an experienced and accomplished aviator would give in to the pressure of making it to the destination, ignoring obvious signs that conditions for his aircraft were beyond safe flight.
 
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