Cost for Jet Type rating?

AdamZ

AdamZ

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Adam Zucker
This past weekend I took my sister and her boyfriend to the Airport. While there we saw a Citation Bravo on the ramp. He asked how much it cost to learn to fly that. I was kind of at a loss. I know the average cost to get your PPL and IR but What would be the average cost to get type rated in a smaller citation?

I figure you need you PPL, Then IR ( yea I suppose you could fly it VFR but your not going to), Then multi. I guess you don't need your comm or CFI or ATP. So what would be a realistic cost to get type rated in such a plane. No gimicks just the cost to get rated and fly it Part 91?
 
I know a local charter company paid just over $15 grand for a buddy to get type-rated for a Sabreliner. The class was barely two weeks long at FSI in St. Louis.
 
SCCutler said:
PanAm Int'l Flight Academy will do a 737 type for $4995.00.

http://www.panamacademy.com/a_home/index.html
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Earlier this year, perhaps in March?... Tom Benenson wrote a great article in Flying Magazine about taking a class for a 737 at Pan Am in Dallas.

When he completed the course, his temporary "Private Pilot" certificate included a 737 type rating. He didn't bring up price, just wrote about the experience and working along side a candidate for SWA.
 
Costs for a CE500-series type rating course run about $10-15K depending on your experience -- it's cheapest if you have prior jet type ratings and SIC experience on the CE500 series, and most expensive if all you have in ME experience is 50 hours in a C-310 or something like that. Extrapolate between the two extremes.

That said, ain't nobody gonna let a GA pilot with no prior jet experience fly as PIC in their CE500 (or insure you to do so in your own) just after completion of that course -- expect to have to get 50-100 hours (maybe more, if you have zero prior jet and limited ME/HP experience) with an experienced CE500 PIC or instructor riding shotgun before you can just "fly it Part 91" as PIC without supervision.
 
Ron Levy said:
Costs for a CE500-series type rating course run about $10-15K depending on your experience -- it's cheapest if you have prior jet type ratings and SIC experience on the CE500 series, and most expensive if all you have in ME experience is 50 hours in a C-310 or something like that. Extrapolate between the two extremes.

That said, ain't nobody gonna let a GA pilot with no prior jet experience fly as PIC in their CE500 (or insure you to do so in your own) just after completion of that course -- expect to have to get 50-100 hours (maybe more, if you have zero prior jet and limited ME/HP experience) with an experienced CE500 PIC or instructor riding shotgun before you can just "fly it Part 91" as PIC without supervision.
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Oh I understand that for sure. I was asked and realized I had no idea what the cost would be from fresh off the street ,Zero time in anything at all through a rating in a jet. 1s the 15-20 K inclusive of all ratings?
 
PanAm seems cheap - too cheap. Higher Power and others charge in the neighborhood of $10K-15K for a 737 type rating, and that's after you do 60 hours of ground school at home and are a pilot with significant experience in airplanes that are complex from a systems perspective. The $5000 from PanAm is either just to generate cash flow at a loss, or there are bound to be hidden costs that will spring up once you're there.

If you're doing an initial type rating (your first in a jet), you have to do takeoffs and landings in the real airplane, or you get a limited type rating as a result. 61.63 addresses this, and it's a godawful reg to follow. Depending on your experience and other ratings, you can get a type rating not valid for PIC without 15 hours of supervised experience, or one not valid for PIC without 25 hours of supervised experience.

Lots of regional operators don't get their pilots typed until they transition to captain - it's not required to for SIC duties. Though that makes me wonder... If you're a non-typed SIC in a CRJ or other airplane requiring a type rating, and your captain keels over dead in flight, are you breaking rules when you fly the airplane and land at the nearest airport, or at your destination?
 
Okay, I got very curious....

I called Pan Am and spoke with a lady about pricing. As is on the web site, they are teaching the 732 for $4,995. That includes all books, instructor time and simulator time. These are available in Las Vegas and Miami. That gives you a "737" type rating on your certificate as the FAA does not distinguish between series.

She went on to say SWA only wants a 737 type rating. They don't care which series it's in. Obviously, they offer training in quite a variety of aircraft but this sure seems like a cheap way for a turboprop pilot to get somewhat of a jump toward a heavier aircraft.

Or, if you just had some money to blow and wanted a new experience...
 
AdamZ said:
Oh I understand that for sure. I was asked and realized I had no idea what the cost would be from fresh off the street ,Zero time in anything at all through a rating in a jet. 1s the 15-20 K inclusive of all ratings?
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No way. $10-15K is just for the type rating if you've already got a Comm-ASMEL-IA or better. Plan on another $25K for the first 250 hours including flying, ground schools, books, exam fees, equipment, etc. So I'd say you're talking at least $40K to go zero to CE500 type, and even then, you're probably 100 hours of CE500 experience from the insurance company letting you fly one as PIC.
 
Ok perhaps I should make the question a little clearer. Say I am NOT a pilot and I want to learn to fly and get to be able to fly a jet. How much would it cost me to be able to fly a jet from the right seat and the left seat respectivly assuming from I walk into the flight school with Zero flying experience. The number I am looking for includes the cost of getting your ppl.
 
Right Seat in a 135/121 Jet would require Commercial, Instrument, and Multiengine ratings. Figure $25-30K for that, assuming you went with a heavy-duty training schedule and did everything in the minimum required by FAR 141. To get HIRED right now you'd probably need 500 TT - some operators are not requiring minimum ME time, they just take you and throw you into class, with a predictably high washout rate.

Left seat in a 121/135 jet requires ATP, MEL, and type ratings. So add $15K for the type and the ATP checkride, plus whatever it will take for you to get the minimum flight experience to qualify for the ATP exam. Then plan on moving into the right seat for a while anyway, as no operator will hire someone as a captain unless they've already BEEN a captain somewhere else, or have been an SIC with enough time to upgrade to captain.

Left seat in a part 91 jet will require private, instrument, MEL, and type ratings. You could theoretically take away some cost for getting the commercial, but let's face it, if you're gonna build the time required to be insurable in a jet, you might as well get the commercial. So, figure $12K for the type rating in addition to the basic above, plus the cost of hiring a professional typed pilot to act as PIC while you gain the 100-200 hours your insurance company is going to want.

This was a good mental exercise, and it does a great job of illustrating why the traditional airline career path (excluding military time) is:

Phase I - the paying phase
Private
Comm/Inst/Multi
CFI/CFII/MEI

Phase II - the teaching phase. Here you build enough time and experience to qualify for an SIC position with an operator. Not much money, but at least it's a positive cash flow for flying. ATP may be obtained in this phase.

Phase IIIa -the professional flying for less than you made teaching phase. Here you fly in an RJ or turboprop for a small operator, getting practical experience, logging additional hours, and waiting to upgrade to captain.

Phase IIIb - Regional captain. You finally are in the left seat, responsible for the airplane and the passengers. Here you actually get to log the time the majors are interested in, jet time where you are acting as PIC.

Phase IVa - Major SIC - all your thousands of hours as a regional captain have qualified you to take a pay cut and move into the right seat of a major. Like phase IIIa, you're logging flight time, and waiting for a chance to upgrade.

Phase IVb - Major Captain - Now your pay depends on the equipment and routes you fly. You may get only a small raise if you go from SIC on international routes in 747s to Captain on domestic routes in a 737. Bouncing back and forth between Captain and SIC is not at all unusual, depending on airline health and your preferences.

If you go the 135 or corporate route, the progression is similar - you start in the right, move to the left, and there are quicker/slower paths depending on the equipment available, and salary varies with the size of the airplane and the role you play.

There's been a lot of hulabaloo over the relatively low times required to be an "Airline pilot" (regional SIC) nowadays. The fact is that most FOs accumulate time pretty quickly, up to the maximum 1000 per year, and the 200-hour wonder hired in January is ready for his ATP ride in another year and a half, and eligible for upgrade to captain too. There are some good rules in place about having one greybeard teamed with every rookie, and the safety statistics seem to indicate that it's working.
 
TMetzinger said:
There are some good rules in place about having one greybeard teamed with every rookie, and the safety statistics seem to indicate that it's working.
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I don't really consider a pilot with 1500 TT and a year and a half experience a "Greybeard". It is almost scary.
 
Jet rating.........I am thinking L-39, mig.........

NOT this commercial poop......:no:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I don't really consider a pilot with 1500 TT and a year and a half experience a "Greybeard". It is almost scary.
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Isn't that within a range where accident rates tend to rise again? Somewhere after one is supposedly eligible for an ATP ticket.
 
AdamZ said:
Ok perhaps I should make the question a little clearer. Say I am NOT a pilot and I want to learn to fly and get to be able to fly a jet. How much would it cost me to be able to fly a jet from the right seat and the left seat respectivly assuming from I walk into the flight school with Zero flying experience. The number I am looking for includes the cost of getting your ppl.
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I think Ron answered it--he said about $40K to go from zero to Type rated.

So that new Town Counselor job must be pretty high powered for you to need your own private jet. :)
 
It can also be free if you get someone else to pay for it!
minor nit; I did not see the high altitude endorsement listed in the requirements above, you might add it
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I don't really consider a pilot with 1500 TT and a year and a half experience a "Greybeard". It is almost scary.
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A graybeard in this case refers to the time they have in their role - a new captain will fly with an FO who's been operating on the route and in the airplane for a while, and vice versa.

Unfortunately, the safety statistics do not support our gut reactions that the crews out there with "only" a couple thousand hours are unsafe.
 
TMetzinger said:
A graybeard in this case refers to the time they have in their role - a new captain will fly with an FO who's been operating on the route and in the airplane for a while, and vice versa.
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Theoretically. It does not always work that way in the real world.

Unfortunately, the safety statistics do not support our gut reactions that the crews out there with "only" a couple thousand hours are unsafe.
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Unfortunately??? I would say that it is DAMNED fortunate that our gut reactions are wrong. For now.
 
Wisconsin Aviation's weekend C500 course leading to type rating is about $4,500 which includes all weekend in sim and class, and 0.8 in aircraft. That presumes CMEL with IR and instrument currency before class.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Unfortunately??? I would say that it is DAMNED fortunate that our gut reactions are wrong. For now.
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My gut reaction is similar to Greg's. Hopefully we will both continue to be wrong.

FWIW my type ratings were both in the $15,000-$20,000 range, took about 2 weeks each, were done 100% in a simulator, and were paid for by someone else.
 
bbchien said:
Wisconsin Aviation's weekend C500 course leading to type rating is about $4,500 which includes all weekend in sim and class, and 0.8 in aircraft. That presumes CMEL with IR and instrument currency before class.
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What percentage of people without previous turbine experience successfully complete this course in one weekend for that price?
 
Ron Levy said:
What percentage of people without previous turbine experience successfully complete this course in one weekend for that price?
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If they are not well-prepared before they arrive, I'm guessing few are ready to move on upon completion. They simply have extra numbers on their ticket... if they get a sign-off.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Unfortunately??? I would say that it is DAMNED fortunate that our gut reactions are wrong. For now.
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It's fortunate for the flying public, of course, but less fortunate for those who would argue for more experience and higher pay scales for entry-level airline pilots.

The flying the regionals do is (in my opinion) not as challenging or hazardous as the long-haul international routes, where you have to make decisions hours in advance based on crappy information. Those guys earn their higher salary, and use their years and years of experience.

I'd love to see higher flight crew compensation, but as long as there are folks competing to fly for Ramen wages, it isn't going to happen. Perhaps we are starting to see the career losing some of it's perceived splendor, and that may trigger a shortage of applicants and a change in the culture.
 
TMetzinger said:
The flying the regionals do is (in my opinion) not as challenging or hazardous as the long-haul international routes, where you have to make decisions hours in advance based on crappy information.
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I'm not sure that I should chime in here since I have not worked for either a regional carrier or flown long-haul international. However, in my experience, I have found that short legs, meaning less that about 1 hour, are much more work-intensive than long ones. Five one-hour legs takes a lot more out of you that one 5-hour leg. Short legs mean that you are doing more takeoffs, approaches and landings as well as being at lower altitudes with potentially worse weather and more complex routings. Anyway, that is my 2 cents.

Perhaps we are starting to see the career losing some of it's perceived splendor, and that may trigger a shortage of applicants and a change in the culture.
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Dunno, aviation has always been seductive, and also very cyclical. I think the lack of applicants today is occurring because the current crop of pilots are the ones who decided to go into aviation in the years following 9/11 when the industry took a nosedive and people were discouraging it. Nowadays I hear a lot of people saying they are going to take the plunge and try to become professional pilots so maybe the supply will pick up again. Hopefully the demand won't go back down about the same time but I wouldn't count on that. :dunno:
 
TMetzinger said:
The flying the regionals do is (in my opinion)
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You ARE entitled to it.

not as challenging or hazardous as the long-haul international routes, where you have to make decisions hours in advance based on crappy information.
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Having done both, (granted, the regional thing was 20 years ago) I would say the reverse is true.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm not sure that I should chime in here since I have not worked for either a regional carrier or flown long-haul international. However, in my experience, I have found that short legs, meaning less that about 1 hour, are much more work-intensive than long ones. Five one-hour legs takes a lot more out of you that one 5-hour leg. Short legs mean that you are doing more takeoffs, approaches and landings as well as being at lower altitudes with potentially worse weather and more complex routings. Anyway, that is my 2 cents.
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Short legs are more work - no argument. But I don't see that as requiring older, wiser pilots, particulary in the US where weather is monitored and forecasted very well.

The savvy, I think, is needed when you're over the ocean, 4 hours into a 13 hour flight, and the weather at your destination (9 hours away in a foreign country) isn't behaving as predicted. Your alternates in that area are looking iffy too, and now you need to decide which of the many contingency plans you may wish to implement, none of which will make your passengers happy.
 
In my experience of over water flying, which is different in the fact that we are not hauling revenue makers, is a magic thing happens when you pass the ETP. The decision is pretty much made for you: destination, alternate, or go swimming. I would guess staying local or on short legs would complicate the decision making matrix by having far more but not always more complicated options available to the crew. As Ron said, each type of flying has it's unique challenges.
 
I don't know if Int'l trans-oceanic flying is necessarily more challenging than flying a 19 seat turbo-prop into a non-tower airport in a snow storm at night using an NDB alone, in the mountains, on minimum rest and on 135 duty time regs - those guys work pretty hard!

But I do agree that each type of flying poses its own unique challenges. Although, having that nice reclining seat with the sheepskin cover and auto-land sure seems a little more bearable... and I know for a fact that the regional guys would not have the luxury of calling the FA up enroute for a lapdance! ;) (if you're curious about that one, see article link below)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article749215.ece
 
Adam: there's a right seat program here at D/FW--Simuflight. Several friends have attended. One gets qualified in the full motion sim in about a week, then can fly right seat. Several folks seem to be looking for someone qualified in the right seat here in the Addison area.

I looked at a Citation II partnership. Don't have the numbers right in front of me but the fuel burn was very expensive. Spike may know what they charge for the checkout. Even though some Citations allow single pilot operations, that's a bit different as far as training; one needs quite a bit of time in the plane and insurance is pretty high those first 100 hours (if one can get it at all). I can try to locate my actual numbers if that would help you some way.

I shied away because of cost, but also because it would take so long to fly single pilot and the plane would have to be repositioned if it didn't stay with me (which it wouldn't do in the partnership). So, in addition to paying for someone else to fly with me, crazy insurance cost, pretty high fixed costs, crazy fuel expense, I would have to pay repositioning fees if they couldn't work out a flight near me to fly the plane back; then, come back and get me.

Best,

Dave
 
I just finished my C500 recurrent (C560 Ultra) at Simuflite on Friday. It's around $6k for the recurrent. I used a right seater that was in their right seater program and they did great for not having much time.

I was talking to the ground instructor and they are seeing more people with low times doing type rides in the C500 series. The C500 covers a lot of aircraft, and very similar to the LR Jet types in the learjets. My recurrent is based on the 560 ultra for which I fly. I guess what I am getting to it's a very useful type if you are a low time pilot and are going to gain experience in the field. There are tons of 500 series aircraft out there. The systems are very simple which is why the lower time people are passing without issues. It's a very obtainable rating to get if you know nothing of jets.
 
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