Cost expected from a Mooney M20

midcap

midcap

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midcap
Trying to get an idea of ownership costs. For you guys who own Mooneys how much are the cost running you on an annual basis. Also, what about unexpected costs, overhauls, avionics repair etc. Thanks.
 
M20what?
 
Fixed Costs:
Insurance $1000
Hangar $3600
Annual $1000

Hourly Costs
Fuel $40
Maintenance $20 (biggest unknown)
Depreciation (engine time etc) $20

So in this example its $5600 + 80 per hour. A 100 hour year would be $13600. The $20 per hour depreciation is not in your cash flow. You pay for that when you sell it for less than you bought if for.
 
Yeah I agree. It's a 12-15K/yr proposition + the amount not already addressed if the hangar costs are housing sized (retarded but to each their own).

Not all that bad for 150knots and 9GPH.
 
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Obviously it's variable, but will an annual really settle into just being a grand? Or is that assuming some level of owner assistance? I kind of figured it'd substantially higher.

Seems pretty economical though! Thanks for the numbers.
 
I've had a M20J for three years and never had a $1000 annual. Cheapest was $2400, and last year was $3600 (encoding altimeter needed work, got a static system check and transponder check). This, with a plane the mechanic describes as a "real nice airplane".

Insurance is costing me $1400.
My hangar (fully enclosed is $220 / month)
Property tax is running $1000 or so.


I burn 13.5 gph, so multiply by whatever your fuel costs are (I run around at 75% power, rich of peak).

It's pricey. If I had to make a loan payment on top of it, I wouldn't have done it.
 
$12k per year +/- 15%

Clarification edit: this is fixed cost before the prob turns
 
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12k a year sounds terribly low. I've been looking at a plane purchase too and the people I have been talking to are telling me 150 hours a year is going to run me somewhere close to 30k a year. Maybe I'm talking to the wrong people. I also live where hangars are upwards of $500, pricier gas, and I am also looking at m20k's and bonanzas but still... That's crazy low


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coloradobluesky said:
Fixed Costs:
Insurance $1000
Hangar $3600
Annual $1000

Hourly Costs
Fuel $40
Maintenance $20 (biggest unknown)
Depreciation (engine time etc) $20

So in this example its $5600 + 80 per hour. A 100 hour year would be $13600. The $20 per hour depreciation is not in your cash flow. You pay for that when you sell it for less than you bought if for.
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I had a C model and those numbers are pretty close except for the annual. Ours averaged $2,500.
 
midcap said:
M20J.
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Insurance $1100
Fuel 8gal/hr...check your area for fuel costs, check hangar costs as well.
Annual $2600, $1800 is fixed price, plus $800 in repairs, this from a MSC, probably would be cheaper with local shop but I needed a few Mooney specific items to look at.
Everything else is line with other comparable aircraft.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
12k a year sounds terribly low. I've been looking at a plane purchase too and the people I have been talking to are telling me 150 hours a year is going to run me somewhere close to 30k a year. Maybe I'm talking to the wrong people. I also live where hangars are upwards of $500, pricier gas, and I am also looking at m20k's and bonanzas but still... That's crazy low


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It's not crazy low, it's marginally reasonable for people with families who don't make supra 150K/yr household incomes. Yes, it sounds like you live in a high hangar cost area, yes your fuel prices are above average. And yes, you're talking to the wrong people if they're telling you it costs 30K/yr to own and operate a 200hp old single engine four banger of any variety. I choose not to live in proverbial MIA, JFK or SFO so that I can afford to include private aviation in my lifestyle, let alone not losing my shirt before I'm even done paying for simpleton housing. Life is full of opportunity costs.

A 35/33 Bo won't run you significantly more than a 4 banger. That one is upper teens to 20K/yr if you index the extra 3-5gph on the same hours (which wouldn't be accurate if you're basing your mission requirements on mile count, not hour count).
 
My C runs 9 gph; realistic fuel burn for a J is 11-11.5 gph if LOP. Multiply by hours flown. My hangar here is >$200/month, where I had paid $100 before moving. Find out what they rent for where you are. Figure Garmin GPS data is $500-600 annually for one, more for two, more yet for a GTN.

Insurance will vary depending in your experience, retract time, IFR rating, etc. mine was sky high as a 62-hour pilot when I bought half; at 100 hours in type, it fell by 50%; when I finally finished up Instrument training it fell another 30%, and has been dropping slowly. It's under $1000 now.

Oil changes need to be added in. Check supply prices at Spruce, I do my own, that's all it costs. I pick up my stuff at Spruce, I can fly there for what they charge to ship two cases of oil, so I do. Let's me look around, take the wife to lunch, etc.

Then add whatever subscriptions you want: EFB, charts, sectionals, Stratus, XM, etc.

That's it for me. Big ticket items like tank reseals, engine OH, etc. must be saved for at some point. You can set some aside periodically, dedicate an investment fund, or shop for a loan when needed.

Some costs are fixed--hangar, insurance, GPS data, charts, annual. These costs do not rise if you fly more, nor do they fall if you fly less. Direct operating expenses are pretty much fuel and oil on an hourly basis. How often do you change oil? 25 hour intervals will cost twice as much per hour as 50 hour intervals.

Owner-assisted annuals not only save money, but they teach you about your plane, let you see the condition of many of it's parts and systems, and give you confidence in how well it will perform.
 
Hank S said:
My C runs 9 gph; realistic fuel burn for a J is 11-11.5 gph if LOP. Multiply by hours flown. My hangar here is >$200/month, where I had paid $100 before moving. Find out what they rent for where you are. Figure Garmin GPS data is $500-600 annually for one, more for two, more yet for a GTN.

Insurance will vary depending in your experience, retract time, IFR rating, etc. mine was sky high as a 62-hour pilot when I bought half; at 100 hours in type, it fell by 50%; when I finally finished up Instrument training it fell another 30%, and has been dropping slowly. It's under $1000 now.

Oil changes need to be added in. Check supply prices at Spruce, I do my own, that's all it costs. I pick up my stuff at Spruce, I can fly there for what they charge to ship two cases of oil, so I do. Let's me look around, take the wife to lunch, etc.

Then add whatever subscriptions you want: EFB, charts, sectionals, Stratus, XM, etc.

That's it for me. Big ticket items like tank reseals, engine OH, etc. must be saved for at some point. You can set some aside periodically, dedicate an investment fund, or shop for a loan when needed.

Some costs are fixed--hangar, insurance, GPS data, charts, annual. These costs do not rise if you fly more, nor do they fall if you fly less. Direct operating expenses are pretty much fuel and oil on an hourly basis. How often do you change oil? 25 hour intervals will cost twice as much per hour as 50 hour intervals.

Owner-assisted annuals not only save money, but they teach you about your plane, let you see the condition of many of it's parts and systems, and give you confidence in how well it will perform.
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Thanks for the info. I never considered doing some of the Mx on the plane. Does it save that much?

I imagine you guys all take samples of the oil and send them into a lab every oil change?
 
I've been told to take oil samples starting around mid-time. I'm at 738 in the tach now, so another two or three years . . . But if you're shopping for a plane, ask for the last 2-3 years worth so you can look for trends. When you buy a plane, keep those records!
 
teejayevans said:
Insurance $1100
Fuel 8gal/hr...check your area for fuel costs, check hangar costs as well.
Annual $2600, $1800 is fixed price, plus $800 in repairs, this from a MSC, probably would be cheaper with local shop but I needed a few Mooney specific items to look at.
Everything else is line with other comparable aircraft.
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Fuel flow is too low for a J.

Hank S said:
I've been told to take oil samples starting around mid-time. I'm at 738 in the tach now, so another two or three years . . . But if you're shopping for a plane, ask for the last 2-3 years worth so you can look for trends. When you buy a plane, keep those records!
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Not being mean but if you're telling folks to get the sample reports if they buy, what happens if you suddenly need to sell yours? You don't have any to offer.

Reason I mention it is, if you feel it's "important" and something came up and you had to sell yours, shouldn't you just be doing them now?

I just asking as a fellow owner checking to see if you really think they're valuable why you're not doing them continuously on yours. Stuff can come up and you need to sell and I wouldn't want to see you without "2-3 years"
worth of reports to offer the buyer. If you see what I mean.

Full disclosure: We've always done them, and they're not that expensive. They've even caught some interesting things like an air filter with a hole in it that wasn't obvious to the casual look at the intake filter. But it showed right up on the oil analysis. (Increased silicon.)
 
I can't give a full evaluation since I've only owned my M20C since August. One thing I can say is that my Mooney will have the least expensive maintenance costs of just about any complex single of its vintage. Its a Lycoming 0-360, on of the more bulletproof airplane engines. Johnson bar gear and hydraulic flaps are fairly low-maintenance systems. What really drives Mooney maintenance up is just getting all those #$#$#%^!! screws off. But that you can do yourself.
 
steingar said:
I can't give a full evaluation since I've only owned my M20C since August. One thing I can say is that my Mooney will have the least expensive maintenance costs of just about any complex single of its vintage. Its a Lycoming 0-360, on of the more bulletproof airplane engines. Johnson bar gear and hydraulic flaps are fairly low-maintenance systems. What really drives Mooney maintenance up is just getting all those #$#$#%^!! screws off. But that you can do yourself.
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that's what I like to hear. That's also really how I got my eye on an M20. I was looking for a fast, efficient 4 seater that wasn't going to nickle and dime me to death.
 
midcap said:
that's what I like to hear. That's also really how I got my eye on an M20. I was looking for a fast, efficient 4 seater that wasn't going to nickle and dime me to death.
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Please define "fast".
 
In a way the 201 is really a sweet spot for a Mooney. It is the fastest to use a Lycoming 0360. On the other hand, the gear is electric and I don't know about the flaps, so more systems.

What I like about the C and E models is the short body. I rarely take anyone in the back seat, and I'm sufficiently short that if I need to I do have some room back there. I never wanted a bigger back seat. I didn't want to pay for one, nor did I want to haul one around with me. My C will do 140 knots all day. I'll burn around 10 gallons an hour, though if I can get up high I can cut that down substantially. It is an enormously stable platform.

If you're serious get on Mooneyspace and start reading. Mooneys have their quirks. Also, go fly one, or at least sit in one. A lot of people other than me find them cramped on the inside. Me, I wear mine and love it.
 
Mistake Not... said:
I've had a M20J for three years and never had a $1000 annual. Cheapest was $2400, and last year was $3600 (encoding altimeter needed work, got a static system check and transponder check). This, with a plane the mechanic describes as a "real nice airplane".

Insurance is costing me $1400.
My hangar (fully enclosed is $220 / month)
Property tax is running $1000 or so.


I burn 13.5 gph, so multiply by whatever your fuel costs are (I run around at 75% power, rich of peak).

It's pricey. If I had to make a loan payment on top of it, I wouldn't have done it.
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That seems spendy. And I'm sure your mechanic thinks it's a nice plane, those 1k annual planes suck :wink2:

I'm about 1k a year annual for my 300hp amphib, which has a lot more going on compared to most Ms, all the M20s I've seen around the airport arnt getting major work done all the time, couple I knew if were 1kish annuals.

Just comes down to getting a real prebuy by a professional APIA and doing your own mx with a honest APIA
 
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James331 said:
That seems spendy. And I'm sure your mechanic thinks it's a nice plane, those 1k annual planes suck :wink2:

I'm about 1k a year annual for my 300hp amphib, which has a lot more going on compared to most Ms, all the M20s I've seen around the airport arnt getting major work done all the time, couple I knew if were 1kish annuals.

Just comes down to getting a real prebuy by a professional APIA and doing your own mx with a honest APIA
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He might live in an expensive area.
 
midcap said:
that's what I like to hear. That's also really how I got my eye on an M20. I was looking for a fast, efficient 4 seater that wasn't going to nickle and dime me to death.
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A short-body Mooney is not really a 4-seater for contemporary people, even if 2 are children. You can get 3 into a 201 and have fuel for 3 hours, maybe even take a toothbrush with you.

You have to shoot for a Bonanza if you want to move kids around. Of something less common. My first manager has a Bellanca Viking, my pre-previous manager has Comanche. Both transport their kids around.

Another guy I know who has a teenager with him often flies a Tiger. It's a bit slower than Mooney, of course, but it beats a Skyhawk by a pretty good margin, and it has a fixed gear.
 
Hank S said:
My C runs 9 gph; realistic fuel burn for a J is 11-11.5 gph if LOP. Multiply by hours flown.

.
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11? Don't know where you pulled that from.
LOP, my J at 8000-9000' will draw ~8.2gph and true out at 150knots
which matches book values from the POH.
You'll only see 11+ running ROP, and you'll get 160+K when doing it.
 
zaitcev said:
A short-body Mooney is not really a 4-seater for contemporary people, even if 2 are children. You can get 3 into a 201 and have fuel for 3 hours, maybe even take a toothbrush with you.

You have to shoot for a Bonanza if you want to move kids around. Of something less common. My first manager has a Bellanca Viking, my pre-previous manager has Comanche. Both transport their kids around.

Another guy I know who has a teenager with him often flies a Tiger. It's a bit slower than Mooney, of course, but it beats a Skyhawk by a pretty good margin, and it has a fixed gear.
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I only have 1 kid right now, so I really only need 3 seats. I will looks at those of air craft you mentioned. Ideally if money wasn't a consideration, I would buy a single engine turbo prop. But, I don't have that much money :D
 
midcap said:
Yeah I really can't see spending more that 75k tops for a plane at the moment.
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Steingar's estimation is about correct - a good RV-10 is a $120k airplane. But $75k will get into into an M20J, just avionics aren't going to be great. For the record, I don't have one yet.
 
zaitcev said:
Steingar's estimation is about correct - a good RV-10 is a $120k airplane. But $75k will get into into an M20J, just avionics aren't going to be great. For the record, I don't have one yet.
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For 120 I think you'd be saddling up in a slick glassair or lance air
 
Talking fuel flow is MEANINGLESS without giving an altitude. This picture is yesterday flying into Guatemala at 12,000' (13,725' density altitude). The 7.3 gph is at ~5dF LOP, wide open throttle. There was a little headwind, so the TAS was about 148kts. Again, fuel flow without all this info is MEANINGLESS.
Rant off.
 

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Fuel flow aside, Mooney M20J costs depend a lot on the pilot. If you can do a lot/all maintenance on your own and have a cooperative A&P and IA to back you up, the cost savings are huge. And you know your airplane.

A lot depends on luck...fuel tank leaks for example. On Thursday I went to start the plane and the mixture knob, vernier barrel and a few broken strands of wire pulled out in my hand. With an international trip scheduled for Saturday morning I had the new part charge $350 plus the overnight air charge to pay. That's the way it is sometimes.

I do and have done oil analyses every oil change since overhaul (about 1500 hours now). Why? I fly hard IFR, night, day, over mountains, over water, whatever.

An M20J properly flown shouldn't have maintenance costs any different than B, C or P planes. Then take the speed and fuel economy which are better. They are great IFR platforms and if you get up high can go a long way. If that fits your mission and you are comfortable in them (as most who have actually been in one are), an M20J is a great choice.
 
Lance F said:
Fuel flow aside, Mooney M20J costs depend a lot on the pilot. If you can do a lot/all maintenance on your own and have a cooperative A&P and IA to back you up, the cost savings are huge. And you know your airplane.

A lot depends on luck...fuel tank leaks for example. On Thursday I went to start the plane and the mixture knob, vernier barrel and a few broken strands of wire pulled out in my hand. With an international trip scheduled for Saturday morning I had the new part charge $350 plus the overnight air charge to pay. That's the way it is sometimes.

I do and have done oil analyses every oil change since overhaul (about 1500 hours now). Why? I fly hard IFR, night, day, over mountains, over water, whatever.

An M20J properly flown shouldn't have maintenance costs any different than B, C or P planes. Then take the speed and fuel economy which are better. They are great IFR platforms and if you get up high can go a long way. If that fits your mission and you are comfortable in them (as most who have actually been in one are), an M20J is a great choice.
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I have over a decade of experience with marine outboard repair, rebuild, maint experience. I am not sure how that translates into the Aero world. Not to mention a full set of tools. I am also detailed oriented when repairing things. I.E. I am the only one who torques their lug nuts I know. :D
 
Lance F said:
Talking fuel flow is MEANINGLESS without giving an altitude. This picture is yesterday flying into Guatemala at 12,000' (13,725' density altitude). The 7.3 gph is at ~5dF LOP, wide open throttle. There was a little headwind, so the TAS was about 148kts. Again, fuel flow without all this info is MEANINGLESS.
Rant off.
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that's awesome, Fuel flow on single engine pistons amaze me how little they burn. I am used to the boating world where the last boat I had flowed about 30-40 gallons per hour. if you were getting 1.5 nmpg you were doing well.
 
Lance F said:
A lot depends on luck...fuel tank leaks for example.
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All airplanes have uber expensive repairs, usually engine and paint. For Mooneys there is a third uber expensive repair, and that's fuel tanks. The Mooneys have wet wings, but the sealant degrades over time. The saying is if the Mooney isn't leaking gas it will. Most of the examples I examined were either leaking or weeping.

There are two remedies for this, and both are expensive. Actually, you can have your A&P throw in some sealant, it may work for awhile. There are a couple shops that will reseal tanks, or you can install bladders. Both are expensive.

And Lance, we'll have to get together sometime and compare notes vis-a-vis Guatemala. I'd like to take my Mooney there. I've a brother and a nephew in the victim of Lago Attitlan.
 
Midcap, you are a prime candidate for doing your own MX. Nothing that special. However working space in a Mooney is tight in many places. Smaller hands help. Get a parts manual and service manual for the M20J and the same for the Lycoming. Finding the right A&P is the key.
 
Lance F said:
Midcap, you are a prime candidate for doing your own MX. Nothing that special. However working space in a Mooney is tight in many places. Smaller hands help. Get a parts manual and service manual for the M20J and the same for the Lycoming. Finding the right A&P is the key.
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I am a little fuzzy on the details, but as I understand you can do a lot of the work yourself on your plane as long as the A&P signs off?
 
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