Coradine LogTen Pro X (I'm sick of giving them money)

[EdFred]

It was more of a joke on the wording of the question. And it would be easy enough to set it up for multiple devices synching. I think maybe 10 lines of code would probably take care of it.

The bigger issue would be me setting up a dedicated server for everyone to access their data - which I have no intention of doing.

 

[JeffDG]

Paradox for DOS (which gives you an idea how old it is!).

Wow...haven't heard Paradox for a LONG time.

 

[mcmanigle]

MyFlightBook isn't pretty, but has tons of features / fields to log. Since don't really need to log my NVG time or my aerial refuelling or my turns about a point, I've gone with Pilot Pro.

It's exactly the opposite: the "features" are about exactly the same as you would find in a paper logbook (flight time, dual, x/c, approaches, etc.) plus a few extra of the big ones (tailwheel, turbine, etc) and exactly what you'd expect in terms of totals reports. Nothing fancy, but it is pretty.

Free for web use from computers, $40 one-time purchase for the iPad/iPhone (together) app. I bought it a couple of years ago and am very happy with it. Looks like it was last updated in 2012, so maybe worth seeing whether this version 2.0 ever comes out (I kind of doubt it, but I'm happy as it is).

Also, it backs up through dropbox and lets you export your data at any time (and fairly easy to import from other apps / spreadsheets as well). Never go with any solution that isn't very easy to export from...

 

[Jaybird180]

No we use real databases where databases are needed And yes..I use vi for basically everything text.

vi is a GREAT text editor.

Access is a TERRIBLE database.

Can you guys take that to the SZ please.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Can you guys take that to the SZ please.

S'matter? Don't like religious arguments?

 

[weirdjim]

Wow...haven't heard Paradox for a LONG time.

I have. Both my GP and my flight surgeon are in the same office.



Jim

 

[SCCutler]

Heh.

Paradox is still the database engine for my billing system, and it also ships as an included program with Corel Office.

 

[denverpilot]

It was more of a joke on the wording of the question. And it would be easy enough to set it up for multiple devices synching. I think maybe 10 lines of code would probably take care of it.

The bigger issue would be me setting up a dedicated server for everyone to access their data - which I have no intention of doing.

No PilotLogsOfAmerica.com?

 

[AggieMike88]

No PilotLogsOfAmerica.com?

Ya think with all of the technonerd brain power on this forum, we could make up the better mousetrap.

 

[kenjr]

I'm probably moving over to myflightbook as well. I used LogTen for a year and it's just overkill for a PPL flying 100'ish hours a year...esp for that price. It's not exactly slick either...it doesn't 'know' airports (ie; key in an identifier and it pulls all the relevant info, etc...). So, not very 'smart' for the price. I'll let my subscription run out, print out my hours, and start anew in myflightbook.

 

[Cogito]

I was just thinking about if I would continue to put endorsements and BFRs in my old paper logbook or in the LogTen Pro app I bought 2 months ago for a "One Time" $75 fee. Easy decision now, I don't trust Coradine. I’ll still use Log Ten Pro as long as it works and I haven’t found a better solution, but I’d never do a subscription model for a database app.

 

[jason]

I used to use a site called logshare. It was great and completely free of charge. One day I went to use the site and it was shut down. I was able to get to my data...but I've been scared of "free" logbook websites since then. I'll definitely take a look at this one based on the feedback here.

 

[JC150]

Is it a $70/year for macbook, iphone, and Ipad? Or do you have to pay for each device still? I'm looking at trying myflightbook or pilotpro as others have recommended on this thread.

 

[denverpilot]

Is it a $70/year for macbook, iphone, and Ipad? Or do you have to pay for each device still? I'm looking at trying myflightbook or pilotpro as others have recommended on this thread.

Doesn't matter. It's a bait and switch from purchased software with updates to rented software.

Many folks here, myself included, have decide to re-evaluate based on that alone.

If the average PP makes 100 log entries a year, it's just under a buck an entry. For what? So it'll be on the phone, iPad, and computer, and still need to be put in a paper book for most CFIs and DPEs in this biz?

That is the clincher for me. If it's going back in a paper book anyway, just put it straight into the book and be done with it.

The tech isn't actually adding any value until you get to hundreds of entries a year, and you'll still have to go back and hack together a template that matches your logbook and print it, like Jesse does. They don't provide good pre-made templates. I've played with those and wasted hours of time on that.

I'll leave double data entry for the accountants and get hours of my life back.

 

[NickC99]

I like LogTen Pro, and I bought the universal version about two years ago. But, I had always wondered how a company like this would cover perpetual operating expenses with a product sold for a one-time fee. LTP is a very niched product (there are only so many pilots out there); eventually, all products hit the mature stage of the product lifecycle.

If Coradine had stuck to the one-time free-for-life licensing, eventually their revenue would crawl. There's just not a big enough market, and they're not a giant software company like Microsoft who has a suite of products for larger, more diversified markets.

Coradine is thinking of the future. This move indicates they want to continue having enough revenue to support the product so they don't go belly-up like some of the other electronic logbook makers. Looking at the new LTP X, I'd imagine they have plenty of fresh ideas for better and more advanced features.

I do not agree, though, with the single-tiered pricing model. That's a bit steep for infrequent flyers such as myself. A multi-tiered subscription model is better to satisfy those of us who don't log 10,000+ hours a year. I'd be happy to trade features I don't need for a lower cost. I paid the $35 for this first year. If we all voice our concerns to Coradine, I think they'll hear and adjust accordingly. I gave them $35 and a year. We'll see what happens.

 

[denverpilot]

Yes, they're thinking of their future and many of us are thinking of ours, without them.

Heh. This isn't rocket science. It's not even a roll of the dice. He knows exactly how many people have downloaded the software and have large databases and lots of entries per month. He's just migrating to them as his base and away from the small guys who did his initial marketing for him via social media.

Your point is that the dude needs a regular paycheck. I already said that.

If he were a stand up guy, the existing customer base would be grandfathered in for free under the terms they originally felt they were doing business with him under, and he could work hard to attract new customers under his new model.

Instead he offers 50% off the first year and is willing to lose the original customer base. His call.

I won't do business with him ever again.

 

[jason]

I like LogTen Pro, and I bought the universal version about two years ago. But, I had always wondered how a company like this would cover perpetual operating expenses with a product sold for a one-time fee. LTP is a very niched product (there are only so many pilots out there); eventually, all products hit the mature stage of the product lifecycle.

If Coradine had stuck to the one-time free-for-life licensing, eventually their revenue would crawl. There's just not a big enough market, and they're not a giant software company like Microsoft who has a suite of products for larger, more diversified markets.

Coradine is thinking of the future. This move indicates they want to continue having enough revenue to support the product so they don't go belly-up like some of the other electronic logbook makers. Looking at the new LTP X, I'd imagine they have plenty of fresh ideas for better and more advanced features.

I do not agree, though, with the single-tiered pricing model. That's a bit steep for infrequent flyers such as myself. A multi-tiered subscription model is better to satisfy those of us who don't log 10,000+ hours a year. I'd be happy to trade features I don't need for a lower cost. I paid the $35 for this first year. If we all voice our concerns to Coradine, I think they'll hear and adjust accordingly. I gave them $35 and a year. We'll see what happens.

I guess that'd be a good compromise for me. Charge $25/year and for that you can log < 100 hours that year. Charge $50/year to log up to 500 hours/year. $100/year for unlimited. The more hours you log the more value you get out of their software.

 

[jason]

Yes, they're thinking of their future and many of us are thinking of ours, without them.

Heh. This isn't rocket science. It's not even a roll of the dice. He knows exactly how many people have downloaded the software and have large databases and lots of entries per month. He's just migrating to them as his base and away from the small guys who did his initial marketing for him via social media.

Your point is that the dude needs a regular paycheck. I already said that.

If he were a stand up guy, the existing customer base would be grandfathered in for free under the terms they originally felt they were doing business with him under, and he could work hard to attract new customers under his new model.

Instead he offers 50% off the first year and is willing to lose the original customer base. His call.

I won't do business with him ever again.

Seems like they're just making bad choices all around. They already did this "screw over the customer" thing last time they put out a major version upgrade. Fool me once, shame on you...

 

[LDJones]

http://myflightbook.com

I used to use a site called logshare. It was great and completely free of charge. One day I went to use the site and it was shut down. I was able to get to my data...but I've been scared of "free" logbook websites since then. I'll definitely take a look at this one based on the feedback here.

I donate $25 to MyFlightbook.com and in exchange get my data dumped into Dropbox every night automagically.

 

[JeffDG]

I donate $25 to MyFlightbook.com and in exchange get my data dumped into Dropbox every night automagically.

And without the donation, you just click a button and it dumps your log out to Dropbox whenever you add something.

 

[NickC99]

Yes, they're thinking of their future and many of us are thinking of ours, without them.

Heh. This isn't rocket science. It's not even a roll of the dice. He knows exactly how many people have downloaded the software and have large databases and lots of entries per month. He's just migrating to them as his base and away from the small guys who did his initial marketing for him via social media.

Your point is that the dude needs a regular paycheck. I already said that.

If he were a stand up guy, the existing customer base would be grandfathered in for free under the terms they originally felt they were doing business with him under, and he could work hard to attract new customers under his new model.

Instead he offers 50% off the first year and is willing to lose the original customer base. His call.

I won't do business with him ever again.

Grandfathering everyone in for free lifetime subscriptions doesn't help with ongoing expenses. With a one-time lifetime fee, revenue is driven only by new customers. They're going to hit a saturation point eventually (if they haven't already) where there's not a big enough market for new customers. (We all know the pilot population is small.) What do you do then when you just cannot maintain a good rate of new customers?

The other option is to start charging one-time fees for every big, new version of the product. So, they'll focus on creating exciting new product versions and trying to sell them to us. And, what if we don't buy their new products? They'll force obsolescence of the older ones, which will just make us more irritated. One way or another, a good product has to be financially supported.

I'd rather pay an ongoing $35-45/year for them to continuously support their product, implement new features and stay up-to-date with iOS releases rather than trying to sell me a new version every year. Foreflight does it that way, and it works great.

I agree that half-off for the first year is a problem for people like us. I've voiced my concerns directly to them (http://help.coradine.com/discussion/new). I think seriously put together a better pricing model if we just tell them.

I guess that'd be a good compromise for me. Charge $25/year and for that you can log < 100 hours that year. Charge $50/year to log up to 500 hours/year. $100/year for unlimited. The more hours you log the more value you get out of their software.

Right, or maybe disable some of the advanced features for a lower cost. I can say I probably don't need the report generation feature. I'm neither adding ratings every few months nor applying for flying jobs.

 

[denverpilot]

I donate $25 to MyFlightbook.com and in exchange get my data dumped into Dropbox every night automagically.

Been there, done that. One man shows in the software biz always eventually disappear.

That said, I knew Coradine was the same issue going in and knew better. The "ooh, shiny" syndrome overruled what I knew from experience. One man software companies only survive by raising prices or they go bye bye.

I think the relatively high price Coradine charged for multiple devices and then the Universal upgrade, fooled me into thinking he'd priced his stuff correctly to make a decent side job out of it, and if he chose to make it his full time gig, he'd do right by his original users who made it possible.

He didn't. So I'm out. And kicking myself for falling for that game again, just a little bit.

Especially considering that a pen for $0.20 will adequately replace his software for my purposes. Heh.

Tech geeks will buy anything once. Maybe twice. We like tech. But buying a third time as a subscription? Nah.

I think I'll avoid closed source logging software unless someone else is paying. Even the free plus donation kind.

Someone builds a system with open source, where the software is truly mine when they get bored or have a life event that takes priority over their code writing hobby, I'll think about using tech for logging again.

I can track currency on my calendar and know how to add. That never was worth the original purchase price, nor the second. It just gave me a toy to play with when bored. It really didn't make the job of maintaining a log any easier. It all still had to be copied into the book later.

 

[denverpilot]

I'd rather pay an ongoing $35-45/year for them to continuously support their product, implement new features and stay up-to-date with iOS releases rather than trying to sell me a new version every year. Foreflight does it that way, and it works great.

Foreflight was and is a game changer technology. Something that could always be done with a $0.20 Bic pen but made significantly better than that technology.

They also replaced a significantly more expensive technology sold by Jeppesen or the government of paper that required giant bags to haul it all around in.

LogTen replaced a Bic and a $19 book that lasts for decades. Well you might need a second Bic. Maybe a third.

They're not even in the same league, value-wise. The feature sets are vastly different.

LogTen is worth about $12/year to me. A buck a month seems reasonable. Or a one time fee of $120 to cover the ten years a paper logbook would. I've already paid roughly three times that.

My decision. I'm fine with it. Not going to do it again, though. I'm sure the new customers will find the new model at the price of a new paper logbook per year worth it. I'd have to use it for at least another ten year to recoup the sunk costs of the first two versions.

I was paying to be his beta tester of a bad business model. I knew it. He knew it. He had the numbers before he ever released the Universal version. Time for me to stop funding his business mistakes.

Not a personal judgement on him. Just an honest re-evaluation of the transaction history in light of the new model.

He made me happy he tried a lifetime model. He made me sad he reneged, and then again when the second time failed.

He has options to keep existing customers hundreds of dollars in the hole to him sound. He chose not to. I choose to not play anymore.

Normal business. He will either sink or swim without me. I've already thrown him one life vest and pushed him back to the surface.

A certain moving map company played with pilots this way a few years back and took their business profits and flushed those and their business down the toilet at a patent attorney's office.

I stopped playing then, too. No big deal. The relationships were once mutually beneficial. They became not so, and that's the bottom line key to any business. If you aren't doing something mutually beneficial for you and customers, it's over.

I do wish him well with his new customer base who finds the subscription model to be mutually beneficial. I'm not throwing any more money down the hole of his endless personal needs without significant new features.

And what features can be added to a logbook for a private pilot? Sync was the only feature I really needed and simple addition and calendar date calculations was more a want than a need. It was overpriced to begin with.

 

[FastEddieB]

Here's my simple, if not the most elegant, Excel solution:

Still, having Excel it's free, I can export in many formats, and with a simple sort and sum I can come up with simple reports when needed.

You may notice I have a few columns hidden, which are still there but not relevant to the flying I'm doing now.

IIn any case, its all I really need. Like I said, a logbook is really just a simple list of flights.

Things like my BFR yesterday, I do have logged and signed off in a paper logbook as well.

 

[LevelWing]

I downloaded LogTen Pro on the iPhone for the demo version and never actually used it. I use MyFlightBook instead. It does everything I want and it's free.

 

[Gsxrpilot]

I've been in the software business most of my career and can say that moving to a subscription model is the trend. Even those of you using Excel will find that it disappears into an Office365 subscription one day. Perpetual licensing of software is going away. It's always difficult and some companies make the switch worse than others. But sooner or later it's gonna happen for all your software.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

http://myflightbook.com

x1000. Free. Does everything. I love that I can just push the start buttons and it logs everything for me. Hobbs time, flight time, landings, etc. I have barely scratched the surface, but it is superb.

Please don't use the words "Access" and "database" in the same sentence.

Oh come now. It has it's place like anything else. For what it does, and for what it is intended to do, it does it quite well.

 

[jason]

Well. Finally heard back from Coradine. No offer to make it up to me in any way. "It was a hard decision" "no way for them to know that OS upgrades would break version 6". They're trying to say that that it's not possible to maintain it.

Money grab...plain and simple.

For those saying that it's impossible to make money off of perpetual licensing...please. I've given them $400 in the last three years. That's more than they're charging for their subscriptions! Where did that money go? If they can **** it away they can **** the recurring revenue away just as easily.

 

[LDJones]

I've been in the software business most of my career and can say that moving to a subscription model is the trend. Even those of you using Excel will find that it disappears into an Office365 subscription one day. Perpetual licensing of software is going away. It's always difficult and some companies make the switch worse than others. But sooner or later it's gonna happen for all your software.

Page key is making sure you're giving sufficient value at a price point your customers can live with. The Office365 model, I think, meets the criteria. The terabyte of cloud storage PER USER is a great added value.

 

[denverpilot]

Page key is making sure you're giving sufficient value at a price point your customers can live with. The Office365 model, I think, meets the criteria. The terabyte of cloud storage PER USER is a great added value.

Most analyses show the rate of return is still in favor of the boxed versions for the length of time that most businesses use a particular version of Office.

You can get completely legal copies of Office for less than a full year's price of O365 for a single user. Every year they don't release a "major" upgrade, you're losing a lot of money renting it at $40 or so a month.

I actually like the general idea of renting something as dumb as word processors and spreadsheets are. But they've overpriced their SaaS model by about 4x by my calculations.

I'd buy it tomorrow at half their current price just for the convenience factor, though.

And they're fools to charge extra for home use. They should just throw that in so no one ever bothers ever to look for alternatives.

Not that many do anyway, but giving it away to home users and then charging only if they want "support" is the strategy they should go with.

O365 could crush the office-suite market, again, completely, if they would get their hosting costs under control. Well that and performance. At my last employer they went to it for corporate mail. Individual messages were often timed at having 10-12 minute delivery times.

 

[jason]

Most analyses show the rate of return is still in favor of the boxed versions for the length of time that most businesses use a particular version of Office.

You can get completely legal copies of Office for less than a full year's price of O365 for a single user. Every year they don't release a "major" upgrade, you're losing a lot of money renting it at $40 or so a month.

I actually like the general idea of renting something as dumb as word processors and spreadsheets are. But they've overpriced their SaaS model by about 4x by my calculations.

I'd buy it tomorrow at half their current price just for the convenience factor, though.

And they're fools to charge extra for home use. They should just throw that in so no one ever bothers ever to look for alternatives.

Not that many do anyway, but giving it away to home users and then charging only if they want "support" is the strategy they should go with.

O365 could crush the office-suite market, again, completely, if they would get their hosting costs under control. Well that and performance. At my last employer they went to it for corporate mail. Individual messages were often timed at having 10-12 minute delivery times.

$40/month? Where did that price come from? O365 personal (single user) is $6.99/month and includes the applications installed on one PC and one tablet. For $9.99/mo it includes installs on up to 5 PCs.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

Re: Coradine LogTen Pro X

Another happy Safelog customer here.

Disclaimer: I get nothing for this.

I've been using Dauntless' Safelog for years. Originally it was only on Windows but they now have web-based, iOS, mac & Android. And they all play nicely together. As long as you have a current subscription, updates are free. Altho the 1 year subscription seems rather steep ($50) the various multi-year options brings it down to $18/yr. Customer support is excellent, by the way.

 

[denverpilot]

$40/month? Where did that price come from? O365 personal (single user) is $6.99/month and includes the applications installed on one PC and one tablet. For $9.99/mo it includes installs on up to 5 PCs.

Go get the business pricing with option to hard install the software. You'll be shocked.

 

[jason]

Go get the business pricing with option to hard install the software. You'll be shocked.

It's $15/mo for their top end product up to 250 accounts.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/03/mi...ption-plans-for-small-and-midsize-businesses/

 

[denverpilot]

Looks like they changed it again. Better. Still, anyone resourceful can get a fully legal copy of Office 2013 Business for $179... So if you run that copy of Office for more than a year, you're saving money using the hard version. If... If... You don't need/want hosted email and Lync.

And then there's the "we haven't spent money on Office suites in years" places like mine. We have people running various versions of Office and they really don't need any of the features in newer versions...

Microsoft will eventually "fix" that for me (so we can standardize) by killing/EOLing the older versions, but they haven't yet. Kill/EOL older ones, jack the boxed price even higher, it'll be a software rental world, soon enough.

We have three users on Win 8.1 Pro. We all hate it.

Well, my 8.1 Pro machine sits unused much of the day anyway, I put my own Mac on my desk... I know you guys buy Macs there but our execs, even though they all run them, haven't taken that plunge yet for company expenditures. Everyone gets a Windows machine, but they're welcome to flatten it and load Linux... Most of the developers do... A few don't. Three have Macs. Both DBAs and one sysadmin have Macs of our own... We're very open to BYOD, maybe too open, but no interest in actually purchasing Apple stuff on the company dime so far... In fact, there's been rumblings of simply offering company financial assistance to employees to purchase hardware they want to use and he employee keeping it when they leave. I'm not thinking most will enjoy the "here. let me wipe that completely for you on your last day... enjoy reloading it!" policy that I'd have to push to do that... But the Devs all develop on virtual machines from Vagrant anyway, so they'd be the least affected. And the call center side of things will never do that...

It's messy. To say the least.

I sure hope that whatever's next for the Win *OS* is worth buying. We're running into hardware now that has no Win7 drivers. Ick. Downgrade rights are keeping our users happy right now. Win7 it is, if that's what they want...

 

[Everskyward]

I have used Logten Pro for a few years after I switched from a very old Windows based program. After reading this thread I was wondering what I was going to decide to do. Then I went onto their site and read this.

$6.99/month or $69.99/year* for iOS, Mac is free

Mac is free? I downloaded the new program Logten Pro X on both my iMac and Macbook Air and it seems to work and sync just fine over the iCloud drive (so far). I haven't gotten any nasty messages about paying something either. I don't keep my logbook on a tablet. I haven't even owned one until... a few minutes ago when I ordered one.

I'm still wondering if this is true. Mac is free? We'll see.

 

[AggieMike88]

I purchased LogTen Univ 60-days ago or so and have not yet seen any emails from them regarding the charges being discussed here.

I did see an article about the new version and the cost associated with that. Including that it's a fresh purchase if you want that.

But for my use, the existing is satisfactory and I have no pressing need for the new version.

Was I supposed to receive an email or regular mail outlining the change in pricing?

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I have used Logten Pro for a few years after I switched from a very old Windows based program. After reading this thread I was wondering what I was going to decide to do. Then I went onto their site and read this.







Mac is free? I downloaded the new program Logten Pro X on both my iMac and Macbook Air and it seems to work and sync just fine over the iCloud drive (so far). I haven't gotten any nasty messages about paying something either. I don't keep my logbook on a tablet. I haven't even owned one until... a few minutes ago when I ordered one.



I'm still wondering if this is true. Mac is free? We'll see.

Are you sure you read that correctly?? Read the next sentence, you will need to pay to see your data after 40 hours.

$6.99/month or $69.99/year* for iOS, Mac is free

LogTen Pro X can be downloaded and used without restrictions on all your Apple devices until you have logged more than 40 hours of total flight time. After which, a single auto-renewing subscription (either monthly or annually) to the LogTen Pro X platform gives you unlimited access to the world’s most advanced pilot logbook on all your Apple devices, effortless syncing, and continuous updates and improvements for the latest devices and operating systems!

 

[Everskyward]

Are you sure you read that correctly?? Read the next sentence, you will need to pay to see your data after 40 hours.

I have far more than 40 hours...

Plus there was no warning about the 40 hours.

Just for kicks I logged a 41 hour flight and it didn't choke...

Then I went to their blog and found this.

The whole LogTen Pro X platform including iOS and Mac is available today, and after 40 hours of flight time are entered in LogTen Pro X for iOS, pilots can purchase a monthly subscription at $6.99 or annual subscription at $69.99.*

So if you never use iOS and only use OS X they don't charge at all?

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I have far more than 40 hours...



Plus there was no warning about the 40 hours.



Just for kicks I logged a 41 hour flight and it didn't choke...

Based on past history, at some point I'd be betting that they will hold your data hostage for cash, after they think you're vested.

Too much prior precedence there.