Confusing clearance KBOW

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
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Display name:
Dave Siciliano
I was given this clearance departing Bartow, FL. BAYPO.HEVVN.
I had filed HEVVN going to Jack Edwards.
The dot meant to me it was a procedure. There was no DP from Bartow. I asked the tower about this and was told not to pay any attention to it; I would be vectored. In the air, I asked Tampa departure about it and was told the same thing. The Garmin unit wouldn't take this; I found it confusing.

Wondered what y'all thought.

Here's the actual clearance I received from Fltplan.com. They say all they do is pass on what center provides.

N322KS Expected ATC Route From: BOW to JKA is BAYP0.HEVVN

Of course, the Garmin unit won't take this. I can put in BAYPO and HEVVN as way points, but that's not what the clearance is. They did just vector me to the northwest as I climbed; eventually, direct to HEVVN. If one lost com, what would the procedure be?


Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I was given this clearance departing Bartow, FL. BAYPO.HEVVN.
I had filed HEVVN going to Jack Edwards.
The dot meant to me it was a procedure. There was no DP from Bartow. I asked the tower about this and was told not to pay any attention to it; I would be vectored. In the air, I asked Tampa departure about it and was told the same thing. The Garmin unit wouldn't take this; I found it confusing.

Wondered what y'all thought.

Here's the actual clearance I received from Fltplan.com. They say all they do is pass on what center provides.

N322KS Expected ATC Route From: BOW to JKA is BAYP0.HEVVN

Of course, the Garmin unit won't take this. I can put in BAYPO and HEVVN as way points, but that's not what the clearance is. They did just vector me to the northwest as I climbed; eventually, direct to HEVVN. If one lost com, what would the procedure be?
Click to expand...

Fltplan.com does not issue IFR clearances, what did you receive from Bartow tower?
 
Cleared as filed. When I specifically asked about the part I questioned, they said don't pay any attention to it; you will be vectored.

Here's what Fltplan.com said when I queried them. All very interesting, but how do I know this when I go to depart?

Best,

Dave
=========================
Hi Dave,

The Planned ATC Route is actually what ATC get.
Occasionally, out of some airports, ATC assigns internal notations for departures.
i.e. depending on the winds or departure runway, they might assign an initial heading or level off altitude.

BAYP0 is one such case. It has significance for the controller, but not the pilot.
So you can just disregard it.


 
Dave Siciliano said:
Cleared as filed. When I specifically asked about the part I questioned, they said don't pay any attention to it; you will be vectored.

Here's what Fltplan.com said when I queried them. All very interesting, but how do I know this when I go to depart?

Best,

Dave
=========================
Hi Dave,

The Planned ATC Route is actually what ATC get.
Occasionally, out of some airports, ATC assigns internal notations for departures.
i.e. depending on the winds or departure runway, they might assign an initial heading or level off altitude.

BAYP0 is one such case. It has significance for the controller, but not the pilot.
So you can just disregard it.


Click to expand...

What had you filed?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Something wrong with what airnav is giving you Dave, the star out of Tampa is BAYPO4 (that is a capital O not a zero, and you need a number after it)
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1113/00416BAYPO.PDF
Click to expand...

Dave: I can't put the BAYPO4 departure in my Garmin from KBOW There are no published DPs out of KBOW. I spent a LOT of time on the ground trying to figure out what in the heck this meant before I called ground which issues clearances there. They just said pay no attention to the man behind the curtain <g>
Tampa Approach said the same thing.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I had filed HEVVN KJKA which I have done several times in the past and which Fltplan.com showed as a previously filed route by others.
Click to expand...
If you had not looked at fltplan.com for your proposed clearance you wouldn't have known that BAYPO was included or whether or not there was a dot. I agree that it probably meant something to ATC but not something you really needed to know about. I always go by the verbal clearance from ATC not what pops up on fltplan.com since they occasionally change things, especially regarding the departures.
 
Everskyward said:
If you had not looked at fltplan.com for your proposed clearance you wouldn't have known that BAYPO was included or whether or not there was a dot. I agree that it probably meant something to ATC but not something you really needed to know about. I always go by the verbal clearance from ATC not what pops up on fltplan.com since they occasionally change things, especially regarding the departures.
Click to expand...

Ah so! So when ground said cleared as filed that meant HEVVN JKA even though fltplan.com had the BAYPO.HEVVN--correct? I I should have just accepted the route I filed and disregarded the e-mail from Fltplan.com :idea:
That makes a lot of sense. I was over analyzing, which I have been known to do <g>

Best,

Dave
 
Well, actually it was runway heading <g>. I owe you a drink or whatever. I've chatted with several folks and no one saw the issue as clearly as you did! I didn't realize the ATC planned route was different than what my clearance would be--shame on me. I'll go stand in the corner for awhile!

Best,

Dave
 
I should have just accepted the route I filed and disregarded the e-mail from Fltplan.com
Click to expand...

exactly, Dave - I think of fp.com as a conduit for us to send our flight plans to atc, (and get weather etc) but the routing they send back is only a suggestion of what might happen.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm sure we'll be at KADS one of these days again.

I'm very simpleminded, oh wait...
Click to expand...

Sometimes that's good policy! I did fly what I had filed, but I kept wondering what the info on Fltplan.com meant. Should have just cleared my mind of it.

Best,

Dave
 
Yeah just wait until ATC gives you the route, never mind what fltplan.com says, especially for departures, as sometimes what Center computers assign gets altered locally.
 
I've had fltplan give me complete nonsense at times it's good but it's not foolproof. If you file a route that the ATC computers think looks reasonable you can get it even if ATC will never read that to you over the air... (I believe the wording as "That's not going to work, got your pencil ready?" when I fltplan and giving me V3 MRB all the way down from OWD one time).
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I had filed HEVVN KJKA which I have done several times in the past and which Fltplan.com showed as a previously filed route by others.
Click to expand...

Then that's how you were cleared. "Cleared as filed" means the aircraft is cleared to proceed in accordance with the route of flight filed in the flight plan.
 
Yes, I know that, but before I called ground, I got the Fltplan.com message and spent a LOT of time trying to figure it out in case that would be the clearance. I wanted to be prepared.

Best,

Dave
 
Here's more information from Fltplan.com on this issue.

Best,

Dave
====================================================

[FONT=&quot]Hi David

Thanks.
It seems only out of western Florida airports (and a few airports in Georgia) that use this type of notation.
You're not the the first to be baffled on what it means.

Here an article from one of our FltBrief Newsletter that we wrote about Planned ATC Routes and the internal ATC Notation. (under Tidbits)
http://flttrack.fltplan.com/fltbrief/february2010/fltbriefvol2.htm#3

Thanks again
Dave P.


[/FONT]
 
TMetzinger said:
Yeah just wait until ATC gives you the route, never mind what fltplan.com says, especially for departures, as sometimes what Center computers assign gets altered locally.
Click to expand...

Been there, done that Tim. Got one from Dallas to Las Vegas a few months ago that was complete gibberish. Fltplan had a decent route that was sent to me. When we went to depart and called, I got several radials off VORs to intersections rather than any of the DPs. We had to sit and look at charts to figure it all out; it put us in the middle of several MOAs and one restricted area. We were confident it would be amended in the air, but had to put it all in the Garmin unit. Shortly after departure, the controller asked what our clearance was and immediately changed it in very busy airspace.

Best,

Dave
 
File what you want.
Fly what you get.
Log what you need.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Been there, done that Tim. Got one from Dallas to Las Vegas a few months ago that was complete gibberish. Fltplan had a decent route that was sent to me. When we went to depart and called, I got several radials off VORs to intersections rather than any of the DPs. We had to sit and look at charts to figure it all out; it put us in the middle of several MOAs and one restricted area. We were confident it would be amended in the air, but had to put it all in the Garmin unit. Shortly after departure, the controller asked what our clearance was and immediately changed it in very busy airspace.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

~~~~~. When you get something strange like that can you call and get it somewhat amended before you even get in the aircraft to depart?
 
The controllers at Tampa clear you on routes that won't match what FlightAware and FltPlan says. I had an opportunity to ask the trainer for new controllers and he explained it had something to do with departure areas or some other terminology I wasn't familiar with. He was surprised I knew the names of them because some of them aren't published in a way we pilots can get to. (if there's a way to find BRNUM... let me know!)

The coordination between Tampa and Jacksonville is particularly poor and it's not at all uncommon for Jacksonville to redo the clearance that Tampa gave you. In the extreme cases Tampa gives you a full route clearance and then Jacksonville gives you back what you filed... and you were on vectors all the way out of Tampa's airspace.
 
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