Complaining to AFF about DPE?
- Thread starter EntilZha
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Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
No experience fighting with AFF. Just wanted to say hang in there. 
"Illegitimi non carborundum".
"Illegitimi non carborundum".
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Welcome to PoA. Please excuse the early morning anti-troll attacks. We get a little sensitive to people who start out with strange questions. Please tell us a little bit about yourself.
Thanks god, I "draw very little sympathy" in persons who "recommend you pull your head out of your ass" and then accuse you of "arrogant attitude."
Thank you, AuntPeggy, for nice welcome. Good buy.
Dear Moderators,
I am going to delete the messages I have control of. Please, delete the whole tread, if possible.
Thanks for understanding.
Thank you, AuntPeggy, for nice welcome. Good buy.
Dear Moderators,
I am going to delete the messages I have control of. Please, delete the whole tread, if possible.
Thanks for understanding.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
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James331
I could have been nicer.
That said aviation is a serious thing even though most on here do it for fun, that's a responsibility that most everyone on here understands.
When someone starts off stating how their failure was everyone else's fault, then in the very next post inflates their ego and boasts about a degree and how that prepares them for the cockpit, that attitude will end up in a pile of bent metal or worse.
I fully stand behind what I said, with how she stated things I didn't feel it appropriate to sugar coat the matter
That said aviation is a serious thing even though most on here do it for fun, that's a responsibility that most everyone on here understands.
When someone starts off stating how their failure was everyone else's fault, then in the very next post inflates their ego and boasts about a degree and how that prepares them for the cockpit, that attitude will end up in a pile of bent metal or worse.
I fully stand behind what I said, with how she stated things I didn't feel it appropriate to sugar coat the matter
Originally Posted by EntilZha 
Does anyone have experience in complaining to AFF about DPE? Me and my instructor are going to complain against discrimination.
I am doing my PPL and the DPE turns himself inside out to fail me. He gave me 4 hour oral asking questions like why CE152 has opposite instead of V engine or what exact technical reason why spins are prohibited on my plane and the date of the AD. I answered. He "fail" me by pulling out 15 weather chart without names and legends and asked to give him the names of those charts. I started reading them to the best of my memory (remember no legend), but he requested names, When I said that the names aren't important, the content is. He told me, I failed.
Second time, I knew he wants to fail me, so I did my flying within <10% of limits (under AIRMET T), but bounced a bit on short field landing. He failed me and denied the right to continue. When I asked him to go a lap on pattern to get the feel of the balance of the airplane, as the guy is twice heavier that my instructor. Our CG was 1/2 inch from forward limit (we couldn't put more weights into the tail, we were on the max weight limit), he got mad and yelled at me.
I have no idea what this guy's problem is. Is it because I am a woman, or that he hates my instructor, or dislike me personally, or hates people who are well prepared.
I would very much appreciate any comments.
It sounds to me like the recommending CFI had a little chat with the DPE before the checkride and explained that while the applicant met the letter of Part 61 and the PVT PTS, (s)he had serious reservations about the applicant..... and would the examiner take a real close look at such and such. I agree with those who will say that there never should have been a recommendation, however, rarely, there are pressures brought to bear and the CFI is forced to use the DPE as a "court of last resort"
Does anyone have experience in complaining to AFF about DPE? Me and my instructor are going to complain against discrimination.
I am doing my PPL and the DPE turns himself inside out to fail me. He gave me 4 hour oral asking questions like why CE152 has opposite instead of V engine or what exact technical reason why spins are prohibited on my plane and the date of the AD. I answered. He "fail" me by pulling out 15 weather chart without names and legends and asked to give him the names of those charts. I started reading them to the best of my memory (remember no legend), but he requested names, When I said that the names aren't important, the content is. He told me, I failed.
Second time, I knew he wants to fail me, so I did my flying within <10% of limits (under AIRMET T), but bounced a bit on short field landing. He failed me and denied the right to continue. When I asked him to go a lap on pattern to get the feel of the balance of the airplane, as the guy is twice heavier that my instructor. Our CG was 1/2 inch from forward limit (we couldn't put more weights into the tail, we were on the max weight limit), he got mad and yelled at me.
I have no idea what this guy's problem is. Is it because I am a woman, or that he hates my instructor, or dislike me personally, or hates people who are well prepared.
I would very much appreciate any comments.
It sounds to me like the recommending CFI had a little chat with the DPE before the checkride and explained that while the applicant met the letter of Part 61 and the PVT PTS, (s)he had serious reservations about the applicant..... and would the examiner take a real close look at such and such. I agree with those who will say that there never should have been a recommendation, however, rarely, there are pressures brought to bear and the CFI is forced to use the DPE as a "court of last resort"
Wow, I don't see anything posted that should have brought about such a response.
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Velocity173
I would say if you're going to complain about discrimination, I'd have some evidence that suggests he's done this before with other women. I'd agree with James in that no one cares that you're a woman. Same goes for race in aviation. Sure there are isolated incidents of discrimination in aviation but it's definitely not something that's widespread.
You'd have a better argument based on him trying to make money off of you by having you come back for another try. If that's the case, and it's been a trend, the FAA is most likely already looking into him. Been thru this before myself.
You'd have a better argument based on him trying to make money off of you by having you come back for another try. If that's the case, and it's been a trend, the FAA is most likely already looking into him. Been thru this before myself.
nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
Brad Z
Final Approach
Not so fast...you ask a question, we get to answer...
First recommendation is for you to fly with another instructor who could evaluate you independently of your CFI. It's possible you're just not quite prepared enough...that's your instructor's responsibility. I'd also make sure that the evaluating instructor is familiar with the DPE.
Does the DPE have a reputation? Generally instructors send their students to DPEs they've used before, and learn their idiosyncrasies. They should all be using the PTS, but they often have their focus areas. I had a DPE for my instrument rating who would show you a sheet of aircraft antennas and you had to identify which was for what type of radio. Of course I knew this going in so it was a piece of cake.
You mentioned you're a woman. Welcome, while you make up 51% of the general population you only make up less than 10% of the pilot population. That number is even less in general aviation, as many women who aspire to fly continue on professionally.
My point here is that instructors, examiners, other pilots, etc. are less likely to interact with female pilots. Did the DPE make any remarks regarding the fact that you're a woman during the test? Do you feel like he held you to a higher standard? The PTS makes no distinction between women and men, and neither should the DPE.
You commented that you wanted to get a feel for the plane with him onboard. If I were an examiner, that would signal that your were not comfortable with the plane and not prepared for the check ride. Remember, he's a passenger on the check ride--would you jump in a plane with a pilot wanted to get the "feel" of flying with you on board? Probably not.
At the end of the day, none of us were there, so it's hard for us to evaluate whether the DPE was unfair. Complaints to the FAA FSDO rarely result in an improved outcome for you. You may end up doing the ride with a FAA inspector, but they have a reputation for being incredibly thorough and not cutting much slack.
I'll admit that your original post came across as a bit of a rant, and not well edited. I assumed English was not your native language and looked beyond it. I would just caution against throwing out the PhD card...there are a lot of doctors, lawyers, CEOs and Indian chiefs in aviation, and none of them have been able to break the laws of physics without paying a sever penalty.
Stay safe and good luck, ok?
First recommendation is for you to fly with another instructor who could evaluate you independently of your CFI. It's possible you're just not quite prepared enough...that's your instructor's responsibility. I'd also make sure that the evaluating instructor is familiar with the DPE.
Does the DPE have a reputation? Generally instructors send their students to DPEs they've used before, and learn their idiosyncrasies. They should all be using the PTS, but they often have their focus areas. I had a DPE for my instrument rating who would show you a sheet of aircraft antennas and you had to identify which was for what type of radio. Of course I knew this going in so it was a piece of cake.
You mentioned you're a woman. Welcome, while you make up 51% of the general population you only make up less than 10% of the pilot population. That number is even less in general aviation, as many women who aspire to fly continue on professionally.
My point here is that instructors, examiners, other pilots, etc. are less likely to interact with female pilots. Did the DPE make any remarks regarding the fact that you're a woman during the test? Do you feel like he held you to a higher standard? The PTS makes no distinction between women and men, and neither should the DPE.
You commented that you wanted to get a feel for the plane with him onboard. If I were an examiner, that would signal that your were not comfortable with the plane and not prepared for the check ride. Remember, he's a passenger on the check ride--would you jump in a plane with a pilot wanted to get the "feel" of flying with you on board? Probably not.
At the end of the day, none of us were there, so it's hard for us to evaluate whether the DPE was unfair. Complaints to the FAA FSDO rarely result in an improved outcome for you. You may end up doing the ride with a FAA inspector, but they have a reputation for being incredibly thorough and not cutting much slack.
I'll admit that your original post came across as a bit of a rant, and not well edited. I assumed English was not your native language and looked beyond it. I would just caution against throwing out the PhD card...there are a lot of doctors, lawyers, CEOs and Indian chiefs in aviation, and none of them have been able to break the laws of physics without paying a sever penalty.
Stay safe and good luck, ok?
Well said and exactly on point. Hopefully she takes up something that will not endanger others.
Mistake Not...
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Mistake Not...
While I didn't see the original post, from the quoted sections it's clear that (at least) her instructor failed her. You don't send someone for a checkride unless you think they'll pass.
Original poster, if you're still reading this, create another account (start fresh) come back and ignore the idiots pronouncing you unfit for flying. It's the internet... they could be (and most likely are) posting from their parent's basement.
What's happening to this board? We should be doing everything we can to encourage and promote aviation. Instead I see crap like this:
Really? Try that in reality. Imagine there's a woman in a room with several other male pilots. Now say that. Now imagine that you don't get (at the very least) asked to leave.
Original poster, if you come back (and I hope you do), spend a little time to learn to use the "ignore" feature. It's about the only real defense we currently have against these self appointed guardians of the sky. If someone says something rude, you can simply remove them from your view. Would that life worked the same way...
Original poster, if you're still reading this, create another account (start fresh) come back and ignore the idiots pronouncing you unfit for flying. It's the internet... they could be (and most likely are) posting from their parent's basement.
What's happening to this board? We should be doing everything we can to encourage and promote aviation. Instead I see crap like this:
Really? Try that in reality. Imagine there's a woman in a room with several other male pilots. Now say that. Now imagine that you don't get (at the very least) asked to leave.
Original poster, if you come back (and I hope you do), spend a little time to learn to use the "ignore" feature. It's about the only real defense we currently have against these self appointed guardians of the sky. If someone says something rude, you can simply remove them from your view. Would that life worked the same way...
dukeblue219
Line Up and Wait
Are you kidding me? You read the original post and that was your response? This is exactly why there aren't more women, or more people in general in aviation -- Because there's this elitist, snobby club of pilots who thumb their noses at anyone new to the game who asks questions or struggles at first.
To the original poster: if what you wrote is true, then no, it was not a typical ride and something was up. We can't know for sure that you are presenting an unbiased version of what happened, so I do understand that some folks will be skeptical. But, for example, asking an applicant to name weather charts precisely is asinine. For one thing the ancient weather resources the faa references in their written tests and publications are of no use in the real world, but beyond that recollection of their exact name is an exercise in needless memorization and is exactly the wrong way to teach.
Sorry you have been welcomed to POA by the grumpy brigade this morning.
Flymeariver
Pattern Altitude
While I dont agree with being a jerk to people, I also find the "victim" mentality in the quoted OP to not be right either. Also, nobody but yourself and an employer cares whether you have a GED, HS diploma, etc. No degree or special connection makes you any more of a pilot than the next person. In both of my checkrides I have found that both of the DPE's were more than fair. I have a hard time believing the story the way it is presented, but only the OP and the DPE know the real truth. Also, ones opinion should not be discounted just because they have only been here a month, lest we forget that everybody was a newbie here at one time.
Jhernandez04
Line Up and Wait
James331..... wtf man?
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
And you know this how?
Everskyward
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