Compass Swing who can and can not

[Don Jones]

YAVW, but you mentioned that I have a long standing fude with Denny Pollard (AKA stache)

I would not know Denny if he walked up to me in a parking lot. but his on line presents is well known here and on the Babes Page, plus he was posting at AOPA.

Most of the time he is harmless and brings up issues that do not pertain to most GA pilots or owners, So I read and ignore.

But when he makes a statement that effects the airworthiness of most of the GA Fleet, I take notice, do my home work, and make a rebutal if needed.

In this case it was blatent that he was wrong, so I took him to tasks over it. In this day and age we are able to challenge the FSDO inspectors and get the correct information from the proper people. we do not need to depend upon one persons interpertation as we have in the past. WE must also be knowledgeable enough to ask the right question to get the answer we need on the pressing issues. We must know the difference between a repair, an adjustment, or a servicing.

I know the FAA and how it works, I also know who to ask the right questions, and get the answers. THe FAA has turned the corner on comunication, it used to take years to get answers, but now we can go directly to the head of the airwortiness section and recieve answers in a matter of hours. E-Mail I love it.

What amazes me is, the number of senior airmen that will jump right on Denny's band wagon and are willing to roll over give away their privileges...... simply scarry.

Tom,
I also have been following this thread with great interest. I for one would like to thank you for taking the time to help make sure we aircraft owners have the correct information. I know it doesn't pay well, but if I ever get a chance the adult beverage of your choice is on me.

 

[tonycondon]

Whew, glad we got that settled.

Ron, curious if you have any documentation from your claims at the beginning of the thread where you claim Stache to be right.

What is the difference between AFS-300 and -350? does it make a difference?

How bout a big round of applause for Stache folks? He may not have been spot on on this one, but he brought up the topic, and everyone is clear now. I for one, and others on here, sincerely appreciate his posts. I can go out to the airport any day and talk to highly experienced A&Ps about my problems but to have a FSDO inspector online here that is friendly and willing to answer my (perhaps our) dumb questions, now that is something good to have!

 

[Don Jones]

Whew, glad we got that settled.

Ron, curious if you have any documentation from your claims at the beginning of the thread where you claim Stache to be right.

What is the difference between AFS-300 and -350? does it make a difference?

How bout a big round of applause for Stache folks? He may not have been spot on on this one, but he brought up the topic, and everyone is clear now. I for one, and others on here, sincerely appreciate his posts. I can go out to the airport any day and talk to highly experienced A&Ps about my problems but to have a FSDO inspector online here that is friendly and willing to answer my (perhaps our) dumb questions, now that is something good to have!

Don't have to find them online Tony, just give them a call. I have called them on several occasions and they have always been friendly and helpful.
Once I even had a conference call going with 3 of them all trying to get me the right answer.

 

[tonycondon]

there are a few here like that Don, especially one of our inspectors is really a gem. Others are not quite so friendly and approachable.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm beginning to wonder if you know what you're talking about. Just how can a compass be swung without turning the adujustment screws? In any event, the written response from AFS-350 trumps any verbal response you say you got from some unnamed source elsewhere in AFS-300.

Thank you very much Ron.

 

[Tom-D]

Whew, glad we got that settled.

Ron, curious if you have any documentation from your claims at the beginning of the thread where you claim Stache to be right.

What is the difference between AFS-300 and -350? does it make a difference?

How bout a big round of applause for Stache folks? He may not have been spot on on this one, but he brought up the topic, and everyone is clear now. I for one, and others on here, sincerely appreciate his posts. I can go out to the airport any day and talk to highly experienced A&Ps about my problems but to have a FSDO inspector online here that is friendly and willing to answer my (perhaps our) dumb questions, now that is something good to have!

Ron has been a great value to this and several other web pages, He will post the best answer he has, but even then he proves himself human.

And OBTW, AFS 350 is the head of the section, IOW he is supervisor of the AFS 300 section of the FAA. (I'm working with out referance)

 

[tonycondon]

Ron has been a great value to this and several other web pages,

So has Stache

He will post the best answer he has, but even then he proves himself human.

So has Stache, cut him some slack. FAA inspectors are not robots with all the right answers.

And OBTW, AFS 350 is the head of the section, IOW he is supervisor of the AFS 300 section of the FAA. (I'm working with out referance)

Thanks, the questions was JOOC.

 

[Tom-D]

So has Stache
So has Stache, cut him some slack. FAA inspectors are not robots with all the right answers.
Thanks, the questions was JOOC.

You must remember:
Why this thread occured.
Who made the incorrect statement?
And what value this is to the aviation community, when a FSDO inspector will place that in open forum?

and ask your self if the proper reading wasn't obtained from OKC would some one have gotten a red tag on the ramp some day?

Maybe you? or would you have paid ($250) for a repair station to re-do a perfectly good compass because you followed the wrong advice.

 

[tonycondon]

You must remember:
Why this thread occured.
Who made the incorrect statement?
And what value this is to the aviation community, when a FSDO inspector will place that in open forum?

and ask your self if the proper reading wasn't obtained from OKC would some one have gotten a red tag on the ramp some day?

Maybe you? or would you have paid ($250) for a repair station to re-do a perfectly good compass because you followed the wrong advice.

When I was ramp checked by my local friendly FAA inspector, he didnt even look at the compass. In the highly unlikely even that the ramp check included a complete review of the logbooks and the FAA inspector determined that a repair station didn't swing the compass and was therefore illegal, i'm sure a call to AFS-300 would've cleared up the whole mess.

Remember, when you go to work for the FAA, you don't sign your soul away to the devil, or become heartless, or brainless. People make mistakes, A&P's and FAA inspectors included.

In my best Forrest Gump voice - "That is all I have to say about that"

 

[TMetzinger]

People make mistakes, A&P's and FAA inspectors included.

In my best Forrest Gump voice - "That is all I have to say about that"

On the "Human Factors" thread, I'd commented that I'd hoped Tom would post his answer, even if it turned out he was incorrect. The ability to stand up and say "Brothers, I was wrong about..." is what makes a smart man a wise man.

People make mistakes. Good people admit them. Great people admit them even when it's not so much a "mistake" as a miscommunication.

Or, in plain English, I'd like Stache to stand up and say that the written response from AFS-350 is gospel, and that he was mistaken about the swing (not the repair, and not the rose survey). Or, if he's still convinced his position is correct, he should get AFS-350 to retract their response in writing.

 

[poadeleted20]

And OBTW, AFS 350 is the head of the section, IOW he is supervisor of the AFS 300 section of the FAA. (I'm working with out referance)

Not exactly. AFS-300 is the Aircraft Maintenance Division of the Flight Standards Service. AFS-350 is the General Aviation and Avionics Branch of the Aircraft Maintenance Division, i.e., the Chief of AFS-350 works for the Chief of AFS-300, not the other way around. However, the term "AFS-300" is often used as a generic term for the entire division, so if something comes out of AFS-350 or AFS-301 or any other branch, folks may say it came from "AFS-300." For more on AFS-350, see http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs300/afs350/

 

[Tom-D]

Not exactly. AFS-300 is the Aircraft Maintenance Division of the Flight Standards Service. AFS-350 is the General Aviation and Avionics Branch of the Aircraft Maintenance Division, i.e., the Chief of AFS-350 works for the Chief of AFS-300, not the other way around. However, the term "AFS-300" is often used as a generic term for the entire division, so if something comes out of AFS-350 or AFS-301 or any other branch, folks may say it came from "AFS-300." For more on AFS-350, see http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs300/afs350/

Oh, OK I'm good with that.

 

[Stache]

Tom, as a follow-up to this discussion. I have recieved a legal writing from Western Pacific Region concerning compass swings/adjustment/calibrations. I have forwared the letter off to Washington requesting national input before posting and information. As you can assume guidance from one region to another is differnet as is National guidance. So maybe by mid summer we will have some national guidannce and rule change to cover all of us (CYA) when performing maintenance.

Stache

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, as a follow-up to this discussion. I have recieved a legal writing from Western Pacific Region concerning compass swings/adjustment/calibrations. I have forwared the letter off to Washington requesting national input before posting and information. As you can assume guidance from one region to another is differnet as is National guidance. So maybe by mid summer we will have some national guidannce and rule change to cover all of us (CYA) when performing maintenance.

Stache

I was prefictly happy with the reading from AFS 350

Inspector Fellows stated

Thomas,
An A&P mechanic is authorized to approve an aircraft for return to
service after performing a compass swing. Adjustment of the readily
available compensating adjustments of a wet compass are included in the
procedures described in AC 43.13-1B Chapter 12, Section 3.

While the FAA believes that the calibration and repair of all
instruments should be classified as appliance major repairs, which an
A&P mechanic is not authorized to approve and return to service (see 14
CFR §65.85(a)), calibration procedures normally require the instrument
case to be opened, special skill and knowledge, and the use of test
equipment. Calibration does not include those adjustments of
instruments and equipment which are accomplished using readily
accessible simple adjusting means that do not have an appreciable effect
on the airworthiness of the instrument. Swinging a compass, adjusting
the compensators to minimize error, and preparation of a compass
correction card is typically considered minor airframe maintenance.

Charles Fellows
Federal Aviation Administration
General Aviation & Avionics Branch, AFS-350
Phone (202) 267-3922
Fax (202) 267-5115

I just wish you would stop stering the pot over these trivial things. and just leave it alone. A&Ps have been doing this type of maintenance from day 1 with no degrading of safety.

 

[JRitt]

Perfect timing on this thread followup. I'm going to have mine replaces in the next week.

 

[steve45]

When I worked for a certified repair station, we used to swing compasses in the air. The local compass roses were very old and their accuracy was questionable.

A current instrument approach plate was used to get the correct heading for various local runways. The plane's directional gyro was set to match the runway heading while flying down the centerline. The plane was then turned to the cardinal headings and readings taken. We then made adjustments, flew down the runway again to re-check the DG calibration, then flew the cardinal headings again.

After several iterations to get the best compass accuracy, we flew all 12 correction card headings and recorded the errors.

I believe this to be the most accurate way to calibrate the compass because it is done with all radios on, the engine running, etc. Lighting could also make a difference, but we normally didn't record it.

 

[Witmo]

When I worked for a certified repair station, we used to swing compasses in the air. The local compass roses were very old and their accuracy was questionable.

A current instrument approach plate was used to get the correct heading for various local runways. The plane's directional gyro was set to match the runway heading while flying down the centerline. The plane was then turned to the cardinal headings and readings taken. We then made adjustments, flew down the runway again to re-check the DG calibration, then flew the cardinal headings again.

After several iterations to get the best compass accuracy, we flew all 12 correction card headings and recorded the errors.

I believe this to be the most accurate way to calibrate the compass because it is done with all radios on, the engine running, etc. Lighting could also make a difference, but we normally didn't record it.

Hope there was no crosswind.