Compass Swing who can and can not

[Tom-D]

yea so on an experimental do these rules apply? can i fill out my own compass card or is it off to the repair station for me?

can i turn the screw to fix major deviations found while filling out card?

You can do all the Maintenance on your EXP certified aircraft. You could even repair your HSI.

In fact, I think I'll send you all my compasses to repair.

 

[gismo]

yea so on an experimental do these rules apply? can i fill out my own compass card or is it off to the repair station for me?

can i turn the screw to fix major deviations found while filling out card?

AFaIK you could build your own compass out of hardware store parts and install it in your experimental glider. If that's true you can certainly adjust the one you already have.

 

[tonycondon]

wonderful! thanks!

 

[Steve]

you don't even need an IA to do your condition inspection...

wonderful! thanks!

 

[tonycondon]

i know, i love it. if i get rich someday, ill think about buying something certified


or ill just buy an RV.

 

[CJones]

or ill just buy an RV.

mwahahaha... I have you HOOKED!!

 

[tonycondon]

well i always had it in the back of my mind. but yes, you didnt make me think any more poorly of the design.

gotta get rid of that stinkin nosewheel though...

 

[Stache]

Please read the whole message before you reply it's all about obtaining knowledge and helping each other. Be a messenger of information I have found a few web sites that will help explain compass swings:

Nov. 2005 issue of AMT magazine:
http://www.amtonline.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=1935

Computerised Compass Swing
http://www.airdev.co.za/question.htm#Q36

General Instrument Questions
Compasses
http://www.airdev.co.za/question.htm

The Hillbilly Swing

Posted March 2006
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/hillbilly.html

OUR ALLY, THE MAGNETIC COMPASS

http://www.avionicswest.com/articles.htm

LEAFLET 8-1 COMPASS BASE SURVEYING

http://www.caa.govt.nz/aircraft/compass_leaflet.htm

Establishing a Compass Swing Site

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:cO4asZwRR7MJ:www.casa.gov.au/rules/1998casr/139/139c15.pdf+aircraft+compass+swing&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=19


So I think everyone agrees that a compass rose has to be surveyed to be accurate. Now the question is who can perform and sign off the compass swing. I would argue a mechanic with a airframe rating working under the direct supervision of a properly rated repair station could perform the compass swing. However my understanding of the rule far 65.81

§ 65.81 General privileges and limitations.
(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§65.85, 65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned.

(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.
[Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65-2, 29 FR 5451, Apr. 23, 1964; Amdt. 65-26, 45 FR 46737, July 10, 1980]

I have to ask the question is a compass a instrument or an appliance. My understanding is a compass is an instrument.

So who can work on instruments?

§ 145.61 Limited ratings.
(a) The FAA may issue a limited rating to a certificated repair station that maintains or alters only a particular type of airframe, powerplant, propeller, radio, instrument, or accessory, or part thereof, or performs only specialized maintenance requiring equipment and skills not ordinarily performed under other repair station ratings. Such a rating may be limited to a specific model aircraft, engine, or constituent part, or to any number of parts made by a particular manufacturer.
(b) The FAA issues limited ratings for--
(4) Instruments of a particular make and model;

Repair station ratings are found in FAR 145 for magnetic compasses.
§ 145.59 Ratings.
The following ratings are issued under this subpart
(e) Instrument ratings.
(1) Class 1: Mechanical. A diaphragm, bourdon tube, aneroid, optical, or mechanically driven centrifugal instrument used on aircraft or to operate aircraft, including tachometers, airspeed indicators, pressure gauges drift sights, magnetic compasses, altimeters, or similar mechanical instruments.

So my argument is to be able to swing a compass, which is to make a new calibration card (required placard part 91.9 rule)one would have to have a class rating. So if we look at FAR 1.1 under Class you will find the following;

Class:
(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges, and limitations of airmen, means a classification of aircraft within a category having similar operating characteristics. Examples include: single engine; multiengine; land; water; gyroplane; helicopter; airship; and free balloon; and

FAR 65.81 excluded repair to instrument so again refer to FAR 1.1 under maintenance and it says:
“Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance.”

As the above rule states repair, inspection, preservation is kind of what compass swings are. I could be wrong, but it’s something to think about.

So what to you aviators think? And please don’t sling mud at me as this discussion is about gaining knowledge and passing on information. I am open to any input someone has that indicates a airframe rated mechanic can perfrom the compass swing and please provide any references. Even Stache is able to listen and learn.

Stache

 

[tonycondon]

interesting stache, i never thought it would be this complicated. thanks!

 

[Tom-D]

[/FONT]

Stache

the decision process is simple, Is an adjustment a repair? because that is what a compass swing is, an adjustment to the compass compensator for north south east and west. simple adjustment that is all it is.

We never have said an A&P can repair any instrument. So your reference to that is not the issue.

Swinging the wet compass after an install or swinging it after any magnetic field change, is nothing more than adjusting the mixture knob of the carburator after installing it, or adjusting it for rich lean

I have seen a multitude of log books with entries saying the wet compass was removed and replaced and swung, with only an A&P for return to service.
Too many in fact to say it was ilegal. And Never once seen a FSDO raise an issue with who did the swing, even after accidents investigations reviews

FAA airworthiness inspectors like your self have been issuing replacement airworthiness certificates with wet compass correction cards installed by A&Ps for a very long time, with no problems.

I do not know why you say A&P mechanics can not service and adjust aircraft components like the wet compass. When the FAR 65.81 says they can.

I quote (again)

65.81 General privileges and limitations.
(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof,

Aren't all instruments appliances? how about the carb? altimeter? voltage regulators? magneto? A&Ps make adjustments to these every day, yet you say we can't, Why? how is a wet compass any different than any other appliance?

If you do not believe me maybe you should look at where the ADs on compasses are listed in the FAA AD data base. Yep! you guessed it, in the appliance list.

So your reading of FAR 65.81 would limit the A&P from doing any work on appliances. Or to look at it another way, your interpertation amounts to a rule change with out the proper notices to rule making be placed in public forum for comment.

I also think that the EAA and the AOPA should take action on this issue. because your decision will effect the way every aircraft large or small is maintained from now on.

Every one on these pages knows you are a FSDO airworthiness inspector working in the Oakland FSDO, that stigma stays with you even when you say you do this on your own.

Every one I talk to at FSDO (that's 4 today alone) say these messages reflect on them. I would really step back and see how this may effect your job. believe me, that is not a threat from me, It simply is what I am passing on as a heads up.

 

[Richard]

Oh my, I certainly hope Stache does not stop posting here. He has become a valued resource for us lowly pilots.

 

[SCCutler]

Stache, I think we have controversy here where none is needed. Stop thinking like a skilled and knowledgeable A&P for a moment, an dthink like a lawyer (I R one). The cited text:

§ 145.61 Limited ratings.

(a) The FAA may issue a limited rating to a certificated repair station that maintains or alters only a particular type of airframe, powerplant, propeller, radio, instrument, or accessory, or part thereof, or performs only specialized maintenance requiring equipment and skills not ordinarily performed under other repair station ratings. Such a rating may be limited to a specific model aircraft, engine, or constituent part, or to any number of parts made by a particular manufacturer.
(b) The FAA issues limited ratings for--
(4) Instruments of a particular make and model;

Repair station ratings are found in FAR 145 for magnetic compasses.
§ 145.59 Ratings.
The following ratings are issued under this subpart
(e) Instrument ratings.
(1) Class 1: Mechanical. A diaphragm, bourdon tube, aneroid, optical, or mechanically driven centrifugal instrument used on aircraft or to operate aircraft, including tachometers, airspeed indicators, pressure gauges drift sights, magnetic compasses, altimeters, or similar mechanical instruments.

So my argument is to be able to swing a compass, which is to make a new calibration card (required placard part 91.9 rule)one would have to have a class rating. So if we look at FAR 1.1 under Class you will find the following;

Class:
(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges, and limitations of airmen, means a classification of aircraft within a category having similar operating characteristics. Examples include: single engine; multiengine; land; water; gyroplane; helicopter; airship; and free balloon; and

is permissive in scope, which is to say, it allows the FAA to issue a rating which is limited to a narrower category of repairs or equipment; this, to allow for narrowly-specialized artisans to practice their well-crafted art without having to learn and certify in unrelated disciplines which they'd never try to practice.

(Sorry, had to bail, as I was taking CJane home from outpatient surgery)

Hence, the allowance for issuing ratings on a more restrictive scope of work in no way implies that the defined scope of work can only be performed by holders of the more restrictive rating.

Asked the lawyer, "Make any sense?"

 

[Tom-D]

Hence, the allowance for issuing ratings on a more restrictive scope of work in no way implies that the defined scope of work can only be performed by holders of the more restrictive rating.

Asked the lawyer, "Make any sense?"

His whole premise is based that an adjustment is a repair, thus the reference to repair station classes of certificates.

But that is not the issue, the real issue is removing privileges from the A&P certificate that have allways been accomplished at that level.

His reading of FAR part 65.81 would make it illegal for the A&P mechanic to remove and install a compass, because the log entry required says this

43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.

(a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless-

(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and

(2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data, or in accordance with current standards and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been developed and documented by the holder of the type certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process, or appliance approval under §21.305 of this chapter.

 

[Tom-D]

Oh my, I certainly hope Stache does not stop posting here. He has become a valued resource for us lowly pilots.

Richard, I hope you do not depend upon this web board for the information you need to operate as a pilot / owner.

Read, gain the information but verify the source and referance, before trusting your life to it.

Yes even me, Ron, and the good Dr. Bruce, better yet, ask where you can find the info and look it up for your self.

The internet is a valuable resource, you can even ask Stache's bosses

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/customer_feedback/afs/afs300/

 

[Graueradler]

A whole lot more important that radio on or off in my Cherokee Flite Liner was alternator on or off. The compass was mounted in the left upper corner of the panel near where the alternator output comes through the bulkhead. Any of you Flite Liner owners, if your compass is still in that location, should check how much difference you get when the alternator field switch is cycled.

 

[Richard]

Tom, I knew such a query would be coming forthwith. Yes, Tom, I do verify the information. I don't trust anyone. Still, there is more wisdom in seeking knowledge from others than in me finding out everything on my own.

BTW: Tom, thank you for 'being there' when someone, sometimes me, has wanted information which you have. But don't feel bad if I decide to round file everything you say about a particular thing.

 

[Tom-D]

But don't feel bad if I decide to round file everything you say about a particular thing.

If I have raised your attention level to a point that you go to the trouble to prove me wrong I have made you smarter.

 

[Tom-D]

But don't feel bad if I decide to round file everything you say about a particular thing.

If I have raised your attention level to a point that you go to the trouble to prove me wrong I have made you smarter.

 

[Richard]

If I have raised your attention level to a point that you go to the trouble to prove me wrong I have made you smarter.

I heard you the 1st time

Anyway, I completely agree with your statement. It implies exactly what I do every time when receiving information from others.

 

[TMetzinger]

This was submitted to AFS 300 via their electronic message board

"Who is authorized to swing a wet compass?

I always understood FAR 65.81 "A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof,

Doesn't this statement give the A&P mechanic the authorization to adjust(not Repair)the compass compensator, at the compass rose???

We'll see what they say.

Did they say anything yet?

 

[Stache]

I contacted AFS 300 this morning about who can adjust a compass by turning the screws and sorry to say they agreed with me. Neither a Airframe or pilot are allowed to perform this task it requires a repair station with the proper ratings.

At one time an Airframe mechanic could perform this task and sign it off. A mechanic could also refill the compass and change the seal. However since the rule changed the privilege was taken away and given to repair stations. The mechanic can still swing a compass and sign it off, but not make changes to the compass its self. If you read preamble in part 65 you will find this.

Stache

 

[TMetzinger]

Wait... so a mechanic can swing a compass and create the compass correction card, but not adjust the compensators? Is that what you mean?

 

[Tom-D]

More FAA double talk, an A&P can swing the compass but not adjust it..right you just made 90% of the GA fleet unairworthy..


congrats ! your working your self out of a job.

 

[Tom-D]

What rule change? when? where was the notice to proposed rule change?

That also makes the AC43.13 useless as a referance to swing the compass..

thanks for the help Stache .

 

[jesse]

congrats ! your working your self out of a job.

congrats! you are being an ass!

What is your deal? Stache doesn't write the regulations. His job is to understand and enforce them.

 

[gismo]

congrats! you are being an ass!

What is your deal? Stache doesn't write the regulations. His job is to understand and enforce them.

Tom has a long standing beef with Denny (Stache). They rarely see eye to eye on anything and It's safer for us to stay out of it.

 

[TMetzinger]

Well looking back, this thread started with Stache talking about compass roses being properly surveyed, and swinging compasses, where he made the statement that an A&P couldn't swing the compass. That quickly blew up into discussing whether a "swing" was a "repair" or an "adjustment", with general agreement that a "repair" required a repair station.

Now I'm ignorant about what a "swing" is, so please correct my assumptions, but I thought that a "swing" could be just taking the airplane out to a surveyed rose, turning the airplane around and filling out the compass deviation card. Or one could adjust the compass first using the compensators to minimize the errors, THEN fill out the deviation card.

What I THINK I understood from Stache's latest post is that a "swing" that doesn't involve adjusting the compass can be done by an A&P. That's a little different than his first assumption that a "swing" required a repair station certificate.

I'd also like to hear what the reply was to the exact question submitted to AFS-300 (by Tom) earlier, since it would be "in writing" and not second-hand via Stache. We all know that the wording of the question drives the answer. Tom, if you got an answer, please share it, or let us know that you haven't gotten an answer.

 

[gismo]

Now I'm ignorant about what a "swing" is, so please correct my assumptions, but I thought that a "swing" could be just taking the airplane out to a surveyed rose, turning the airplane around and filling out the compass deviation card. Or one could adjust the compass first using the compensators to minimize the errors, THEN fill out the deviation card.

What I THINK I understood from Stache's latest post is that a "swing" that doesn't involve adjusting the compass can be done by an A&P. That's a little different than his first assumption that a "swing" required a repair station certificate.

One issue that Tom raised is the content of AC43.13, which IIRC spells out the procedure for "swinging" a compass and I believe that procedure includes as one of the early steps, adjusting both sets of compensation magnets.

 

[Tom-D]

One issue that Tom raised is the content of AC43.13, which IIRC spells out the procedure for "swinging" a compass and I believe that procedure includes as one of the early steps, adjusting both sets of compensation magnets.

Here is the response from the FAA AFS350, in reguard to my question.

Thomas,

An A&P mechanic is authorized to approve an aircraft for return to
service after performing a compass swing. Adjustment of the readily
available compensating adjustments of a wet compass are included in the
procedures described in AC 43.13-1B Chapter 12, Section 3.

While the FAA believes that the calibration and repair of all
instruments should be classified as appliance major repairs, which an
A&P mechanic is not authorized to approve and return to service (see 14
CFR §65.85(a)), calibration procedures normally require the instrument
case to be opened, special skill and knowledge, and the use of test
equipment. Calibration does not include those adjustments of
instruments and equipment which are accomplished using readily
accessible simple adjusting means that do not have an appreciable effect
on the airworthiness of the instrument. Swinging a compass, adjusting
the compensators to minimize error, and preparation of a compass
correction card is typically considered minor airframe maintenance.

Charles Fellows
Federal Aviation Administration
General Aviation & Avionics Branch, AFS-350
Phone (202) 267-3922
Fax (202) 267-5115


Thank you Mr. Fellows

 

[TMetzinger]

Wonderful! Two different answers, and I suspect the questions weren't asked exactly the same way.

Who is AFS-300, and why does it appear their answer differs from AFS-350?

 

[Tom-D]

Wonderful! Two different answers, and I suspect the questions weren't asked exactly the same way.

Who is AFS-300, and why does it appear their answer differs from AFS-350?

Did you notice Denny did not quote the response he obtained from OKC

You can call the number at the bottom of my post if you like.

Untill such time you see the FAA post a rule change with all the comment period and every thing that goes with it, on an offical FAA web page do NOT believe what you read on any other place.

Because the first rule of webpage surfing is,,,,,,,You never really know who is typing.

This is what I sent as a thank you.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Charles.Fellows@faa.gov>

Cc: <Monica.Hudnell@faa.gov>; <Jackie.L.Black@faa.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [AFS-HQ] QMS Inquiry, Compass swing

Thank You Mr Fellows, for your time and troubles.
This makes life a lot easier than what Denny Pollard from The OakLand FSDO
is stating on line at

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10906

Thomas C. Downey A&P-IA
Oak Harbor Wa. 98277

Again Thank You

 

[Tom-D]

Wonderful! Two different answers, and I suspect the questions weren't asked exactly the same way.

Who is AFS-300, and why does it appear their answer differs from AFS-350?

I simply asked on the AFS inquiry page

Office:
AFS-300 Aircraft Maintenance Division

Comment:
Who is authorized to swing a wet compass?

I have always understood FAR 65.81 "A certificated mechanic may perform
or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an
aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof,

Doesn't this statement give the A&P mechanic the authorization to
adjust(not Repair)the compass compensator, at the compass rose?

Company or Self:


Name:
Thomas C. Downey

 

[gismo]

Here is the response from the FAA AFS350, in reguard to my question.

Thomas,

An A&P mechanic is authorized to approve an aircraft for return to
service after performing a compass swing. Adjustment of the readily
available compensating adjustments of a wet compass are included in the
procedures described in AC 43.13-1B Chapter 12, Section 3.

While the FAA believes that the calibration and repair of all
instruments should be classified as appliance major repairs, which an
A&P mechanic is not authorized to approve and return to service (see 14
CFR §65.85(a)), calibration procedures normally require the instrument
case to be opened, special skill and knowledge, and the use of test
equipment. Calibration does not include those adjustments of
instruments and equipment which are accomplished using readily
accessible simple adjusting means that do not have an appreciable effect
on the airworthiness of the instrument. Swinging a compass, adjusting
the compensators to minimize error, and preparation of a compass
correction card is typically considered minor airframe maintenance.

Charles Fellows
Federal Aviation Administration
General Aviation & Avionics Branch, AFS-350

Thanks Tom, for posting their reply. For once the FAA actually makes sense to me.

 

[Tom-D]

Thanks Tom, for posting their reply. For once the FAA actually makes sense to me.

YAVW, but you mentioned that I have a long standing fude with Denny Pollard (AKA stache)

I would not know Denny if he walked up to me in a parking lot. but his on line presents is well known here and on the Babes Page, plus he was posting at AOPA.

Most of the time he is harmless and brings up issues that do not pertain to most GA pilots or owners, So I read and ignore.

But when he makes a statement that effects the airworthiness of most of the GA Fleet, I take notice, do my home work, and make a rebutal if needed.

In this case it was blatent that he was wrong, so I took him to tasks over it. In this day and age we are able to challenge the FSDO inspectors and get the correct information from the proper people. we do not need to depend upon one persons interpertation as we have in the past. WE must also be knowledgeable enough to ask the right question to get the answer we need on the pressing issues. We must know the difference between a repair, an adjustment, or a servicing.

I know the FAA and how it works, I also know who to ask the right questions, and get the answers. THe FAA has turned the corner on comunication, it used to take years to get answers, but now we can go directly to the head of the airwortiness section and recieve answers in a matter of hours. E-Mail I love it.

What amazes me is, the number of senior airmen that will jump right on Denny's band wagon and are willing to roll over give away their privileges...... simply scarry.

 

[Skip Miller]

Tom, I have been reading this thread with interest. Thanks for your perseverence.

One more question that comes dangerously close to beating the dead horse:

Who (Pilot, Owner, A&P) is authorized to take the plane over to the compass rose and position the plane on various headings, recording the deviation at each heading (not adjusting the compass) and preparing a new deviation card?

-Skip

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, I have been reading this thread with interest. Thanks for your perseverence.

One more question that comes dangerously close to beating the dead horse:

Who (Pilot, Owner, A&P) is authorized to take the plane over to the compass rose and position the plane on various headings, recording the deviation at each heading (not adjusting the compass) and preparing a new deviation card?

-Skip

When you make out a correction card it becomes a compass swing. Adjusting the compass compensator is just a method of reducing the error at the 4 major headings.

But only an A&P (or better) can log it and return to service with an entry to the airframe log. The advantage of doing this is when the correction card gets lost you can go back in the log get the info and fill out another one.

 

[Tim]

Which is why I like to get my elected representatives involved.

It is well known that an A&P can swing a compass and has been forever. My blood pressure goes thru the roof when I hear stuff like.

"Recently the compass rose has come up office conversation and who, when, how, and what type of compass survey should be accomplished."

Office conversation!

This stuff doesn't become a rule on a web board or in office conversation. I would have heard about it at my FAA office IA meeting, or some kind of notice.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't buy a beer for Mr. FAA or Mr. Downey.

Thanks Tom! I still haven't heard from my PMI.

 

[Tom-D]

Which is why I like to get my elected representatives involved.

It is well known that an A&P can swing a compass and has been forever. My blood pressure goes thru the roof when I hear stuff like.

"Recently the compass rose has come up office conversation and who, when, how, and what type of compass survey should be accomplished."

Office conversation!

This stuff doesn't become a rule on a web board or in office conversation. I would have heard about it at my FAA office IA meeting, or some kind of notice.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't buy a beer for Mr. FAA or Mr. Downey.

Thanks Tom! I still haven't heard from my PMI.

They are probably out chasing some wolf hunter that has a missing compass rose

OBTW what is the compass variation at Fairbanks?

For what it is worth, most instrument repair stations do not use a compass rose to calibrate the compass compensator, they use the method in the 43,13-1b known as the master compass.

 

[alaskaflyer]

My former A&P/IA/CFI used a GPS and taxied around the apron like a madman.

(Not my current plane - the one I used to fly.)

 

[poadeleted20]

I contacted AFS 300 this morning about who can adjust a compass by turning the screws and sorry to say they agreed with me. Neither a Airframe or pilot are allowed to perform this task it requires a repair station with the proper ratings.

At one time an Airframe mechanic could perform this task and sign it off. A mechanic could also refill the compass and change the seal. However since the rule changed the privilege was taken away and given to repair stations. The mechanic can still swing a compass and sign it off, but not make changes to the compass its self. If you read preamble in part 65 you will find this.

Stache

I'm beginning to wonder if you know what you're talking about. Just how can a compass be swung without turning the adujustment screws? In any event, the written response from AFS-350 trumps any verbal response you say you got from some unnamed source elsewhere in AFS-300.