Commercial Training Flights

[AuntPeggy]

The other day I arranged with the local flight school to "buy" Hubby a Commercial license for his early Christmas gift. That is, he will fly our plane with their instructor to get the training and they will bill my credit card without discussing money with him. He'll fly their 182 for complex time.

I've seen the posts about the requirement for multi-leg flights where one landing is more than 50 nm from the origin. Considering the number of times he has flown to Tulsa and California from New York, solo and with me, we figured he didn't need to worry about getting any additional flight hours. We just found out he needs two 2-hour flights (day and night) greater than 100 miles with an instructor. Is this something new?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

We just found out he needs two 2-hour flights (day and night) greater than 100 miles with an instructor. Is this something new?

I don't know how new it really is, but it wasn't like that when I did mine 25 years or so ago.

 

[gprellwitz]

He'll fly their 182 for complex time.

I hope that's a 182RG, or it won't qualify, but I presume you knew that.

As for the 2 two-hour flights being a "new" requirement, it's been that way at least a couple of years.

 

[tonycondon]

been that way for the last 5 yrs that i know of

 

[RMCN172RG]

I still have to knock those out and my wife wonders why they are needed also.

My plans, besides lunch with my CFI, is to use the day one as the final full planning and run through for the practical test.

 

[ScottM]

We just found out he needs two 2-hour flights (day and night) greater than 100 miles with an instructor. Is this something new?

Nope. Has been around for a while.

 

[AuntPeggy]

I still have to knock those out and my wife wonders why they are needed also.

My plans, besides lunch with my CFI, is to use the day one as the final full planning and run through for the practical test.

sigh.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've seen the posts about the requirement for multi-leg flights where one landing is more than 50 nm from the origin. Considering the number of times he has flown to Tulsa and California from New York, solo and with me, we figured he didn't need to worry about getting any additional flight hours.

The solo flights are the ones that will fill that 300nm XC square -- and they must be logged as solo (no other live human being in the plane).

We just found out he needs two 2-hour flights (day and night) greater than 100 miles with an instructor. Is this something new?

Depends on your definition of "new," Peggy -- it's been there for over eleven years -- and I do not wish to be perceived as asking or commenting on a lady's age!

 

[AuntPeggy]

Depends on your definition of "new," Peggy -- it's been there for over eleven years -- and I do not wish to be perceived as asking or commenting on a lady's age!

I am a lively parent, grandparent, and great-grandparent and I have always been proud of my accomplishments, including at 65, living beyond the age acquired by both my parents and all my grandparents.

 

[poadeleted20]

I am a lively parent, grandparent, and great-grandparent and I have always been proud of my accomplishments, including at 65, living beyond the age acquired by both my parents and all my grandparents.

Then since it came in some 30 years after I started learning the rules, and you're a tad older than me, I guess it qualifies as a new rule.

 

[Erice]

I have a question about the 100 nm daytime dual flight (I hope this isn't a thread hijack!).

I think the FAR says that it has to be 100 nm in daytime VMC. Most of the long XC I did for my instrument rating was done in daytime VMC (under the hood--I think I got only 0.2 actual out of it), and it was dual. Would that satisfy this requirement?
________
clear trichomes

 

[ScottM]

I have a question about the 100 nm daytime dual flight (I hope this isn't a thread hijack!).

I think the FAR says that it has to be 100 nm in daytime VMC. Most of the long XC I did for my instrument rating was done in daytime VMC (under the hood--I think I got only 0.2 actual out of it), and it was dual. Would that satisfy this requirement?

If you did not log that flight as simulated instrument it would. The reg actually says this:

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

VMC and VFR are two different things. Their use of VFR conditions means that you are flying visually and not under the hood.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think the FAR says that it has to be 100 nm in daytime VMC. Most of the long XC I did for my instrument rating was done in daytime VMC (under the hood--I think I got only 0.2 actual out of it), and it was dual. Would that satisfy this requirement?

AFS-800 said that when they wrote that rule as it is currently worded, they wanted that flight flown day VFR (or night VFR for the night dual XC) in VMC using pilotage and dead reckoning for navigation, and you can't do that either hooded or under IFR (regardless of conditions). Of course, the FAA Chief Counsel has never been asked this question, so there's always the chance that if someone does ask, they'll overrule AFS-800 and say the reg doesn't say what AFS-800 intended it to say, but that doesn't happen often.

That said, the Part 61 rewrite currently in progress has proposed changing that rule to allow the flight to be conducted IFR or VFR, including actual or simulated instrument conditions. We'll see if that change remains in the final rule when it's published (we hope) next year.

 

[AuntPeggy]

AFS-800 said that when they wrote that rule as it is currently worded, they wanted that flight flown day VFR (or night VFR for the night dual XC) in VMC using pilotage and dead reckoning for navigation, and you can't do that either hooded or under IFR (regardless of conditions). Of course, the FAA Chief Counsel has never been asked this question, so there's always the chance that if someone does ask, they'll overrule AFS-800 and say the reg doesn't say what AFS-800 intended it to say, but that doesn't happen often.

That said, the Part 61 rewrite currently in progress has proposed changing that rule to allow the flight to be conducted IFR or VFR, including actual or simulated instrument conditions. We'll see if that change remains in the final rule when it's published (we hope) next year.

That being the case, using the GPS would be cheating, right?

Actually, that makes it start to make sense. It has been a long time since we flew relying completely on pilotage if you don't count this summer when we had an electrical failure and had to continue to the nearest airport by pilotage. And then by pilotage to an airport with a mechanic.

 

[TMetzinger]

If you did not log that flight as simulated instrument it would. The reg actually says this:

VMC and VFR are two different things. Their use of VFR conditions means that you are flying visually and not under the hood.

VFR conditions likely means you are maintaining the appropriate cloud clearances and such ad nauseum see vfr weather minimums.

Does not mean you are flying visually or preclude flying under the hood. As noted elsewhere:

VFR refers to flight rules
IFR refers to flight rules
VMC refers to flight meteorological conditions above those specified for VFR flight
IMC refers to flight meteorological conditions below those specified for VFR flight.
Actual instrument conditions are when you MUST use the instruments to maintain control of the airplane.
So maybe we should define ACTUAL VISUAL CONDITIONS as those conditions where the pilot can maintain control of the airplane without reference to instruments?

 

[poadeleted20]

That being the case, using the GPS would be cheating, right?

John Lynch would say so -- anything but clock, airspeed, heading, compass and chart would be beyond DR/pilotage. And if you fly it with me, that's exactly what you'll be reduced to in short order. [where's that 'evil grin' smiley I need for times like this?]

Actually, that makes it start to make sense. It has been a long time since we flew relying completely on pilotage if you don't count this summer when we had an electrical failure and had to continue to the nearest airport by pilotage. And then by pilotage to an airport with a mechanic.

Exactly -- just to make sure you can still do it by the most basic methods as well as with all the nifty gadgets before they let you take paying passengers out over the wilderness.

 

[AuntPeggy]

John Lynch would say so -- anything but clock, airspeed, heading, compass and chart would be beyond DR/pilotage. And if you fly it with me, that's exactly what you'll be reduced to in short order. [where's that 'evil grin' smiley I need for times like this?]
Exactly -- just to make sure you can still do it by the most basic methods as well as with all the nifty gadgets before they let you take paying passengers out over the wilderness.

OK, Ron, you are starting to get me to come around.

The instructor, then, is along to:
a - be sure you don't cheat
b - save your skin if you've forgotten how to get from point a to point b
c - be an evil distractor.

And the night flight, is by pilotage, too, to keep paying passengers safe when everything shuts off at night.

I still have to knock those out and my wife wonders why they are needed also.

My plans, besides lunch with my CFI, is to use the day one as the final full planning and run through for the practical test.

Hubby is planning a day-long event. Fly up to the pumpkin festival at Keene with a CFI (not his regular CFI) and go through all the maneuvers on the way up since it won't take 2 hours to fly 127 nm. Then come back down after dinner at a leisurely pace and practice some landings. I'll stay in the back with a barf bag handy.

Does that sound like a good idea?

 

[TMetzinger]

The commercial manuevers are not too bad, but in some airplanes the back seat is uncomfortable due to increased perception of yaw, reduced visibility, and reduced cooling airflow. Be sure they are ready to "knock it off" on request.

 

[poadeleted20]

OK, Ron, you are starting to get me to come around.

The instructor, then, is along to:
a - be sure you don't cheat
b - save your skin if you've forgotten how to get from point a to point b
c - be an evil distractor.

And the night flight, is by pilotage, too, to keep paying passengers safe when everything shuts off at night.

Correct on all counts.

Hubby is planning a day-long event. Fly up to the pumpkin festival at Keene with a CFI (not his regular CFI) and go through all the maneuvers on the way up since it won't take 2 hours to fly 127 nm. Then come back down after dinner at a leisurely pace and practice some landings. I'll stay in the back with a barf bag handy.

Does that sound like a good idea?

Yes, it does.