Commercial question, re: aircraft used

[flyersfan31]

Maybe a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway just to be sure.

Certain comm manuvers (chandelle, lazy 8 to name 2) seem to require a utility category-rated aircraft to perform them. Am I missing something? Reason I ask is that my new T182T is rated in the normal cat only - all aerobatic maneuvers prohibited, including intentional stalls. If I were to get the ASEL Comm(and that's my intent), and if my understanding is correct, I'll have to rent to do the complex and non-complex, in an a/c that permits the comm maneuvers. As it is, I'll have to do the multi-comm first, as KLOM has no rental ASEL complex.

Should have kept the Sundowner a little longer, I suppose!!!

 

[Lance F]

Certain comm manuvers (chandelle, lazy 8 to name 2) seem to require a utility category-rated aircraft to perform them.

I don't think that is true. These are not high G aerobatic maneuvers. I would wager that most SE Comm check rides are done in normal category planes.
OTOH if you're worried you can do these maneuvers in a fixed gear plane. Only a couple of tasks require the complex aspect.

 

[flyersfan31]

That's the question -- I can't believe I'd be the only person in the world doing the Comm in a 182! I just can't point to the proof.

AS it is, it looks like I'll do my MEL + I, then get the MEL-Comm, since that's the only complex I have access to (and what the heck, I'd like to have the multi rating), then do the single Comm add-on in my 182. Regs permitting, of course.

 

[tonycondon]

im pretty sure that you can use your 182

 

[ScottM]

You will not be exceeding 60degrees of bank nor going inverted, well you better not be. So there is no way I see this going into the utility category.

 

[KennyFlys]

You will not be exceeding 60degrees of bank nor going inverted, well you better not be. So there is no way I see this going into the utility category.

Ditto. The closest you'll get are steep turns which will probably be 55 degrees. Just don't exceed 60. That would be a bust.

But, Commercial PTS require it to be a "complex airplane" per Page 7,
Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test

4. be a complex airplane furnished by the applicant, unless the applicant currently holds a commercial pilot certificate with a single-engine or multiengine class rating as appropriate, for the performance of takeoffs, landings, and appropriate emergency procedures. A complex landplane is one having retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable propeller or turbinepowered. A complex seaplane is one having flaps and controllable propeller.

A certified simulator may slide on some tasks.

 

[mantakos]

... all aerobatic maneuvers prohibited, including intentional stalls...

Henh? That's got to be "intentional spins", no?
-harry

 

[tonycondon]

Ditto. The closest you'll get are steep turns which will probably be 55 degrees. Just don't exceed 60. That would be a bust.

But, Commercial PTS require it to be a "complex airplane" per Page 7,
Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test


A certified simulator may slide on some tasks.

only the initial commercial (for powered aircraft) has to be in a complex. he can do the multi comm first and then add on single in his 182. Lance did that with his Baron/Porterfield.

 

[KennyFlys]

only the initial commercial (for powered aircraft) has to be in a complex. he can do the multi comm first and then add on single in his 182. Lance did that with his Baron/Porterfield.

Most pro pilot students do the multi-comm first then add on a single. That's the normal route at our school and the reason I need to jump on ME and MEI after II is done.

 

[tonycondon]

ive never been able to decide if the motivating factor behind that sequence is the students or the schools. it means more money in multi rentals to the school and depending on the student may or may not be worth it. cash vs. multi time. i took the single then multi route.

 

[KennyFlys]

ive never been able to decide if the motivating factor behind that sequence is the students or the schools. it means more money in multi rentals to the school and depending on the student may or may not be worth it. cash vs. multi time. i took the single then multi route.

I think there are benefits with each path. For example, I think the commercial would go a lot easier when you continue with performance in the commercial practical test that is as visual as the private pilot practical test. But, the total time and cross-country requirements preclude that for nearly all students.

I was one of the few who didn't have that concern. Most who begin commercial even after flying for several years have substantial TT but don't have the XC requirements met and still have to complete them.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Certain comm manuvers (chandelle, lazy 8 to name 2) seem to require a utility category-rated aircraft to perform them. Am I missing something?

No, but maybe I am... What leads you to believe these maneuvers require utility category aircraft?

The chandelle goes only to 30 degrees of bank and 15 degrees pitch up, ending with what's basically just recovery from slow flight. Nothing unusual or stressful (to the airframe, anyway ) at all here.

The lazy 8 also stays within ±15 degrees pitch and 45 degrees bank, again nothing that would need any special airframe.

FWIW, the Arrows that many comm students have done their rides in are NOT utility category.

Reason I ask is that my new T182T is rated in the normal cat only - all aerobatic maneuvers prohibited, including intentional stalls.

I assume you mean spins... I don't know of any normal category singles that prohibit stalls. (I'm sure someone will come up with some normal category single that has a swept wing now. )

If I were to get the ASEL Comm(and that's my intent), and if my understanding is correct, I'll have to rent to do the complex and non-complex, in an a/c that permits the comm maneuvers. As it is, I'll have to do the multi-comm first, as KLOM has no rental ASEL complex.

You have three options:

1) Rent a complex ASEL for the whole shebang.
2) Rent a complex ASEL for the takeoffs and landings, do the rest in your 182.
3) Do your comm-AMEL first, which will take care of the complex requirement, and do the entire comm-ASEL in your 182.

AS it is, it looks like I'll do my MEL + I, then get the MEL-Comm, since that's the only complex I have access to (and what the heck, I'd like to have the multi rating), then do the single Comm add-on in my 182. Regs permitting, of course.

You don't need to do the private AMEL before the commercial AMEL, though you certainly can do it that way (and you'll be able to log some multi PIC time). And yes, the regs permit you to do it as you describe.

I thought long and hard about the three options above. Here's a couple things to think about:

With option 2 (vs. option 1), you'll have to be able to handle two aircraft very well, you'll have to know two sets of systems and go through two sets of logbooks during the oral.

With option 3, you'll have to have more multi time in, including the long cross country. That could mean added expense. (I had all the requirements for the commercial ASEL done with the exception of the dual day&night cross countries just in the course of my regular recreational flying, so I didn't really need to worry about the ASEL stuff too much.) However, option 3 also allows you to do the entire comm-ASEL in your own plane which may well make up the difference.

Also, option 1 will probably cost you more simply because you're having to rent when you already own a plane. Blech.

Provided the flight time requirements such as the long XC don't deter you from doing the multi first, that's probably the best way to go. I personally hemmed and hawed and gave up and decided to just get it done in a rental Arrow. Of course, I'm not finished yet...

 

[gprellwitz]

From the T182T Information Manual:

Maneuver Limits (page 2-8)
This airplane is certificated in the normal category. The normal category is applicable to aircraft intended for non-aerobatic operations. These include any maneuvers incidental to normal flying, stalls (except whip stalls), lazy eights, chandelles, and turns in which the angle of bank is not more than 60*.

Aerobatic maneuvers, including spins, are not approved.

So it doesn't limit the limit to intentional stalls, and the commercial maneuvers you cited are explicitly approved.

 

[flyersfan31]

Intentional stalls -- now that would be a prohibition! I bet the legal depts at Cessna, Cirrus etc might be on board with that one though!!! Yeah, I meant spins.

The source of my confusion was the placard in my old Sundowner that listed all max entry speeds for chandelles, Lazy 8's, etc, while operating as Utility. For some reason I interpreted that to mean that such maneuvers were somehow acro maneuvers not permitted in normal category.

Thanks for the clarifications.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you're doing your commercial at a university where they run Diamonds, you must do the multi first, because the TwinStar is approved as "complex" for that purpose, but there's no complex single available in the Diamond line.

In any event, unless the maneuvers as required by the PTS (including the 30-degree restriction on Chandelles and Lazy-8's) is prohibited in the aircraft limitations (which to my knowledge is not so for the C-182), you can use a normal category airplane. Note that "aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight" [14 CFR 91.303(f), emphasis added]. Those Performance Maneuvers, if performed per the Commercial-Airplane PTS, do not involve either "abrupt" or "abnormal" flight, and so do not rise to that definition. However, unless you have another complex airplane available for the complex demo, you can't do an initial commercial in a C-182 other than a C-182RG.

And I've never heard of any C-182 in which "intentional stalls" are prohibited. I believe the others who stated that restriction was being confused with "intentional spins prohibited" (which is in the C-182 book) are correct.

 

[Teller1900]

only the initial commercial (for powered aircraft) has to be in a complex. he can do the multi comm first and then add on single in his 182. Lance did that with his Baron/Porterfield.

That's what I did, too. Com initial in the Seminole, Com SE addon in the skyhawk. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

 

[flyersfan31]

Thanks Ron, that clears up the utility question for me. My university days are, sadly, long since past, so I don't really need to worry about a Diamond TwinStar.

"Intentional stalls" was a brainfart. Of course I meant spins.

Unfortunately, we don't have a complex single at the field, so if I want to do the comm I'll have to go down the multi path first. That would enable me to do the single add-on in my plane (now that I've cleared up the maneuvers question). Since I'd like to get the multi rating anyway (not that I'll likely use it much), it's not really a burden for me to go this route.

Now - on to studying for the written....