Commercial pilot privileges and limitations

[MachFly]

I was a bit bored today (actually really bored) and was reviewing some stuff in the FAR, specifically commercial pilot privileges and limitations. It's been a while since I've reviewed them and I found something odd. §119.1(e)(1) & §119.1(e)(3) says that a commercial pilot is allowed to do student instruction and training flights.

My first question is considering that I do not have a CFI, am I actually allowed to get paid for teaching students to fly? I always thought you needed a CFI for that.
I realize that I still won't be able to sign anyone's logbook but looks like §119.1(e) says that I don't need a CFI to teach.

Second question is what's the difference between student instruction and training flights?


Thanks

 

[bqmassey]

119.1(e) is not a list of commercial pilot privileges (that's in part 61). This a list of things that a commercial operation can do without having to be issued an operator's certificate. Flight training is one of those things. It does, of course, still require that the instructor be a CFI.

I don't know about the "student instruction" vs. "training flights". My first thought is that it might be differentiating between flight instruction done with a flight instructor (such as training towards a rating, recurrent training, etc) and training someone, like a new employee, in company procedures. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable weighs in.

 

[RotorAndWing]

One can give instruction in a Part 135/125 and 121 operation without holding a CFI.

 

[frfly172]

I believe an ATP can give instruction without a instructors cert. ,if they are giving instruction to a pilot for an ATP rating.

 

[flyingron]

I believe an ATP can give instruction without a instructors cert. ,if they are giving instruction to a pilot for an ATP rating.

Not strictly true. An ATP can instruct in "other pilots in air transportation SERVICE." This means he can instruct other pilots in the course of his duties as an airline pilots. This lets ATPs train the other company pilots. It doesn't mean he can go out and train ATPs otherwise (unless he also has a instructor certificate as well).

 

[poadeleted20]

One can give instruction in a Part 135/125 and 121 operation without holding a CFI.

...although one must be an ATP to do that, not just a Commercial Pilot. That privilege is enunciated in 14 CFR 61.167(a)(2) as an ATP privilege, and there is no equivalent privilege for Commercial Pilots in 14 CFR 61.133. Here's the full rule on that privilege:

(2) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and has met the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159 and the age requirements of § 61.153(a)(1) of this part may instruct—
(i) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(ii) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph (a)(2)(i) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(iii) Only as provided in this section, except that an airline transport pilot who also holds a flight instructor certificate can exercise the instructor privileges under subpart H of this part for which he or she is rated; and
(iv) In an aircraft, only if the aircraft has functioning dual controls, when instructing under the provisions of this section.

Now, none of these rules prohibit you from teaching in an airplane, and even getting paid for your time for that, as long as you don't endorse their logbook or otherwise document that you have given them "training". So, you can show someone how to do loops in your Pitts (although that may take a 91.147 LoA if they're paying for it), or show someone how to fly their Cessna 421C. They can't call that "training" in their logbook, you can't sign their logbook as having done that, and you can't log the time as "training given" in your logbook, but nothing in the FAR's says you can't do what I've described.

 

[RotorAndWing]

...although one must be an ATP to do that, not just a Commercial Pilot. That privilege is enunciated in 14 CFR 61.167(a)(2) as an ATP privilege, and there is no equivalent privilege for Commercial Pilots in 14 CFR 61.133. Here's the full rule on that privilege:

135.338 Qualifications: Flight instructors (aircraft) and flight instructors (simulator).

(a) For the purposes of this section and §135.340:
(1) A flight instructor (aircraft) is a person who is qualified to instruct in an aircraft, in a flight simulator, or in a flight training device for a particular type, class, or category aircraft.
(2) A flight instructor (simulator) is a person who is qualified to instruct in a flight simulator, in a flight training device, or in both, for a particular type, class, or category aircraft.
(3) Flight instructors (aircraft) and flight instructors (simulator) are those instructors who perform the functions described in §135.321(a) and 135.323 (a)(4) and (c).
(b) No certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve as a flight instructor (aircraft) in a training program established under this subpart unless, with respect to the type, class, or category aircraft involved, that person—
(1) Holds the airman certificates and ratings required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part;
(2) Has satisfactorily completed the training phases for the aircraft, including recurrent training, that are required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part;
(3) Has satisfactorily completed the proficiency or competency checks that are required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part;
(4) Has satisfactorily completed the applicable training requirements of §135.340;
(5) Holds at least a Class III medical certificate; and
(6) Has satisfied the recency of experience requirements of §135.247.
(c) No certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve as a flight instructor (simulator) in a training program established under this subpart, unless, with respect to the type, class, or category aircraft involved, that person meets the provisions of paragraph (b) of this section, or—
(1) Holds the airman certificates and ratings, except medical certificate, required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part except before March 19, 1997 that person need not hold a type rating for the type, class, or category of aircraft involved.
(2) Has satisfactorily completed the appropriate training phases for the aircraft, including recurrent training, that are required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part;
(3) Has satisfactorily completed the appropriate proficiency or competency checks that are required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part; and
(4) Has satisfactorily completed the applicable training requirements of §135.340.
(d) Completion of the requirements in paragraphs (b) (2), (3), and (4) or (c) (2), (3), and (4) of this section, as applicable, shall be entered in the individual's training record maintained by the certificate holder.
(e) An airman who does not hold a medical certificate may function as a flight instructor in an aircraft if functioning as a non-required crewmember, but may not serve as a flightcrew member in operations under this part.
(f) A flight instructor (simulator) must accomplish the following—
(1) Fly at least two flight segments as a required crewmember for the type, class, or category aircraft involved within the 12-month period preceding the performance of any flight instructor duty in a flight simulator; or
(2) Satisfactorily complete an approved line-observation program within the period prescribed by that program preceding the performance of any flight instructor duty in a flight simulator.
(g) The flight segments or line-observation program required in paragraph (f) of this section are considered completed in the month required if completed in the calendar month before, or in the calendar month after, the month in which they are due.


So a Part 135 operation that flies Cessna Caravans hauling cargo, and the PIC requirement is a Commercial/SEL rating can't use a Commercial rated pilot as a company Flight Instructor?

 

[MachFly]

One can give instruction in a Part 135/125 and 121 operation without holding a CFI.

I somewhat understand those parts, it's the part 91 that got me confused.

Now, none of these rules prohibit you from teaching in an airplane, and even getting paid for your time for that, as long as you don't endorse their logbook or otherwise document that you have given them "training". So, you can show someone how to do loops in your Pitts (although that may take a 91.147 LoA if they're paying for it), or show someone how to fly their Cessna 421C. They can't call that "training" in their logbook, you can't sign their logbook as having done that, and you can't log the time as "training given" in your logbook, but nothing in the FAR's says you can't do what I've described.

Okay that makes sense.


Thanks guys

 

[Velocity173]

Yeah we've got several instructors in the company (Part 135) that do training without a CFI. Annual evals are done by a check airman.

 

[dans2992]

So you could be a "mentor pilot" as often required for insurance coverage without a CFI?

I suspect the insurance carrier would insist on a CFI though.

 

[poadeleted20]

So you could be a "mentor pilot" as often required for insurance coverage without a CFI?

Sure -- as far as the FAA is concerned, because they don't require a "mentor pilot" in the first place.

I suspect the insurance carrier would insist on a CFI though.

Since they're the ones requiring that "mentor pilot," then they get to say what that mentor pilot's qualifications must be.

 

[poadeleted20]

135.338 Qualifications: Flight instructors (aircraft) and flight instructors (simulator).

(b) No certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve as a flight instructor (aircraft) in a training program established under this subpart unless, with respect to the type, class, or category aircraft involved, that person—
(1) Holds the airman certificates and ratings required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part;


So a Part 135 operation that flies Cessna Caravans hauling cargo, and the PIC requirement is a Commercial/SEL rating can't use a Commercial rated pilot as a company Flight Instructor?

Interesting that the FAA put that in Part 135, but not in Part 61 as they did for ATP's.

 

[TMetzinger]

Sure -- as far as the FAA is concerned, because they don't require a "mentor pilot" in the first place.

Since they're the ones requiring that "mentor pilot," then they get to say what that mentor pilot's qualifications must be.

Yep... what I've seen from insurance is things like:
XX hours dual instruction in type before solo or acting as PIC (which requires a CFI)
Flight review in type
CFI Checkout in type

Never seen anything that didn't require a CFI writing something in the log.