Commercial - Long XC

Caramon13

Caramon13

Pattern Altitude
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May 18, 2015
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2,261
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Sarasota, FL
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Romeo
Hi guys,

Maybe it's just a flaw with myflightbook.com, but I logged my commercial long XC today with the following route:

KSPG KSRQ KSAV KJES KSRQ KPIE KSPG

over 657 miles round trip, 3 landings (actually 6), one at least 250 miles from point of origin (KSPG/KSAV). I did have an instructor on board as I wanted to count some of the time towards complex airplane time/instruction. It appears taht 61.129 says the long xc can have an instructor on board as long as I'm acting PIC, which I was.

Am I reading something wrong or did I make a $1,300 mistake....

Thanks
 
61.129(a)(4) says an instructor can be on board, but you have to perform the duties of pilot-in-command.
 
Right, I definitely did that. I had my complex endorsement before the flight, and I'm a private/instrument rated pilot. Hopefully just myflightbook.com shenanigans...
 
Caramon13 said:
Right, I definitely did that. I had my complex endorsement before the flight, and I'm a private/instrument rated pilot. Hopefully just myflightbook.com shenanigans...
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I just checked my Commercial long XC in MyFlightbook and noticed it wasn't checked in ratings progress, either. Once I added the solo time, it did check the box, though. Not sure if @EricBe is aware of this situation or not. Could be that it's tough to tell whether it's ONLY you and the instructor in the plane based solely on PIC time, so for ease of guaranteeing meeting the requirements, he only checks the box if the time is marked solo.

Maybe try editing the flight and adding an entry for 100% of the time as solo and seeing if the box gets checked. Then, remove the solo time entry and see if the box stays checked.
 
mjburian said:
I just checked my Commercial long XC in MyFlightbook and noticed it wasn't checked in ratings progress, either. Once I added the solo time, it did check the box, though. Not sure if @EricBe is aware of this situation or not. Could be that it's tough to tell whether it's ONLY you and the instructor in the plane based solely on PIC time, so for ease of guaranteeing meeting the requirements, he only checks the box if the time is marked solo.

Maybe try editing the flight and adding an entry for 100% of the time as solo and seeing if the box gets checked. Then, remove the solo time entry and see if the box stays checked.
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Yep, thanks the solo time did it. Interestingly (or not) I also kept the dual time in there as well and now both items (complex time requirement and long XC solo) are sorted out.

Thanks!
 
You can't count it as one flight and get credit for the long solo cross country and credit for dual instruction received. You can break it down and count the time for KSPG KSRQ KSAV KJES As your cross country and then log KJES KSRQ KPIE KSPG as a separate flight for dual received. Here is the chief counsel letter saying that you can't count one flight as both: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...s/2014/kuhn - (2014) legal interpretation.pdf
 
Caramon13 said:
Yep, thanks the solo time did it. Interestingly (or not) I also kept the dual time in there as well and now both items (complex time requirement and long XC solo) are sorted out.

Thanks!
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Don't leave the solo in there, though, since (obviously) that's not how the flight was conducted. That was just the check to be sure the flight met the criteria otherwise.

Also, see the reply from Wheels above regarding the logging of dual instruction.
 
Caramon13 said:
Yep, thanks the solo time did it. Interestingly (or not) I also kept the dual time in there as well and now both items (complex time requirement and long XC solo) are sorted out.

Thanks!
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It's not "dual" and it's not "solo." I don't know how MyFlightBook handles "performing the duties of pilot in command with an authorized instructor on board" aka "supervised solo" but from an FAR standpoint it is neither solo nor dual. @Wheels linked the Chief Counsel Interpretation that says it is not "dual." If you read it carefully you will see it says it doesn't match any 61.51 category unless the trainee is already rated for the aircraft in which case it is loggable as PIC. There is also an earlier Interpretation to tell us it is not "solo." http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2007/olshock-panam3 - (2007) legal interpretation.pdf

In your case, it counts toward the commercial solo cross country requirement and it is loggable as PIC since you already have a private certificate with an ASEL rating, as well as total flight time, but that's it. For example, it does not count toward the 10 hours of complex dual.
 
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Hmm ok. So I think I'm probably going to have to look at how this is recorded in the logbook right now.

The flight started at KSPG, I flew to KSRQ to pickup the instructor and we flew from KSRQ to KSAV (refueled a bit), then headed to KJES and topped off. Left KJES and flew back to KSRQ where I dropped the instructor off.

I intended to fly to KSPG but had to divert to KPIE since KSPG was closed due to a disabled vehicle on the runway which involved using a crane to get it off..ugh. After about 30 minutes at KPIE I got the all clear and flew KPIE to KSPG.

So my logbook has only one entry in it:

KSPG KSRQ KSAV KJES KSRQ KPIE KSPG - 6 landings, 7.4 ASEL, 7.4 XC, 5.9 Dual, 7.4 PIC 7.4 Total. Solo time would be 1.5.

So, technically speaking I did my cross country part-solo, part-dual. And therein lies my confusion..
 
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I'm not going to look at the route and parse the flight for you but, offhand, it looks like you might be able to count KSPG KSRQ KSAV KJES to meet the "solo" requirements, part "true solo" (loggable as PIC and solo) and part "supervised solo" (loggable as PIC but not solo). Seems you have the distance and the landings although I haven't gone into it in detail. That would leave the return rip from KJES to KSRQ to count toward one of the dual cross country flights and whatever other dual seems to fit.
 
As a commercial pilot candidate, I would hope a person would be able to fly 250 miles or at night without an instructor on board. The FAA changing the reg a couple years ago was a mistake IMO. I would decline any student that wants me to go with them on what used to be solo flight requirements.
 
dmspilot said:
As a commercial pilot candidate, I would hope a person would be able to fly 250 miles or at night without an instructor on board. The FAA changing the reg a couple years ago was a mistake IMO. I would decline any student that wants me to go with them on what used to be solo flight requirements.
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Yeah, the reason I did it primarily was to get complex dual time AND do the long XC. I guess that sorta back-fired from what everyone is saying. I'll probably need to go back and take a look at the times per leg and re-do the log entries.

@Wheels, @midlifeflyer, @mjburian thanks for the help!
 
dmspilot said:
As a commercial pilot candidate, I would hope a person would be able to fly 250 miles or at night without an instructor on board. The FAA changing the reg a couple years ago was a mistake IMO. I would decline any student that wants me to go with them on what used to be solo flight requirements.
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I believe the change was mostly due to insurance? But I agree. Why would I want to pay extra for a CFI when I could do it all on my own.
 
@dmspilot @jordane93: I had about 6.1 hours of required complex time for CPL. Figured the 4-5 hours for XC would top that off. I'll probably still need more for the maneuvers, but at least I got some of it.

Will probably need to get the instructor to sign the logbook on another line for a separate flight.

But as per @Wheels looks like the best way to break it up would be:

KSPG KSRQ KSAV KJES (3 landings, one 250 nm from point of origin) - long xc
KJES KSRQ KPIE KSPG (flight back) - dual and xc time.

I've got all the hobbs/tach times recorded at each landing so, this should be the easy part. Might end up with about 3 or so of Dual counted towards the complex training and the other will go to the long xc.
 
jordane93 said:
I believe the change was mostly due to insurance?
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It was. It was originally placed in the 61.129(b) requirements for the commercial multi. Insurance requirements would not allow solo flight, especially by a non-rated pilot. So the FAA put it in. Eventually, the FAA put it everywhere. The FAA's stated reason was that there were even some singles with heavy insurance requirements but I figured that it was mostly to level the playing fields (which I guess means almost the same thing).
But I agree. Why would I want to pay extra for a CFI when I could do it all on my own.
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And, of course, no one has to. It's an option for those who need or want it, that's all.
 
Hi All,
This is my first post so please go easy. I am a PP ASEL w 300 total time just now going through my log book in preparation for my IR and Comm training. As far as the long XC for commercial goes, does 61.129 (4)(I) "solo flight time" mean without an instructor onboard or does it mean "sole occupant?" I ask because a friend (not a pilot) and I like to go flying and split costs and we have done this long distance more than once. Can I count one of those 300nm w a 250nm leg towards my Comm since I was acting PIC and Sole manipulator but not sole occupant?
Pursuit51
 
pursuit51 said:
Hi All,
This is my first post so please go easy. I am a PP ASEL w 300 total time just now going through my log book in preparation for my IR and Comm training. As far as the long XC for commercial goes, does 61.129 (4)(I) "solo flight time" mean without an instructor onboard or does it mean "sole occupant?" I ask because a friend (not a pilot) and I like to go flying and split costs and we have done this long distance more than once. Can I count one of those 300nm w a 250nm leg towards my Comm since I was acting PIC and Sole manipulator but not sole occupant?
Pursuit51
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Unfortunately, for your situation... Solo = no other humans aboard (animals are OK, though, if you do PNP flights, for example).
 
pursuit51 said:
Hi All,
This is my first post so please go easy. I am a PP ASEL w 300 total time just now going through my log book in preparation for my IR and Comm training. As far as the long XC for commercial goes, does 61.129 (4)(I) "solo flight time" mean without an instructor onboard or does it mean "sole occupant?" I ask because a friend (not a pilot) and I like to go flying and split costs and we have done this long distance more than once. Can I count one of those 300nm w a 250nm leg towards my Comm since I was acting PIC and Sole manipulator but not sole occupant?
Pursuit51
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Short answer, no. From 61.87

(a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section. The term “solo flight” as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.

Solo means sole occupant, the point of the exercise is for you to go a 300nm flight without someone to hold your charts, comment on the weather, manage fuel etc...
 
airheadpenguin said:
Short answer, no. From 61.87
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Thanks for the replies. Being that I am already a private pilot, does 61.87 still apply? I am technically a student in that I am receiving instruction towards another rating, but I am not a student pilot, per se...right?
 
pursuit51 said:
Thanks for the replies. Being that I am already a private pilot, does 61.87 still apply? I am technically a student in that I am receiving instruction towards another rating, but I am not a student pilot, per se...right?
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It sure looks like you're right.
 
That's true, find another definition of solo in the FAR that you like better there aren't many
 
airheadpenguin said:
One that comes to mind is this:

61.51
"(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft."
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Except that, as I've heard it, that last part means "sole human occupant"... since it seems fairly common that people flying animal rescues log the time as solo if the only occupants are the pilot and a dog, for example.
 
Is solo really a hard word to comprehend? Its been brought up multiple times here and every someone has a question about it, it baffles me.
 
jordane93 said:
Is solo really a hard word to comprehend? Its been brought up multiple times here and every someone has a question about it, it baffles me.
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I am an airman and an adult and I have acted like one. Please do the same.
 
Since 'pilot in command' time can be logged even thought you are not pilot in command, I don't blame the OP for questioning if the word 'solo' only means when you are the only human in the airplane.
 
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