Comm practice

flyingcheesehead

Touchdown! Greaser!
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iMooniac
Hey, this VFR stuff can be really fun! :yes:

I went flying in an Archer yesterday to practice some of the commercial maneuvers: Steep turns, steep spirals, and chandelles.

I headed out to the NW practice area and started with some steep turns. They weren't as good as last week, but I was just warming up.

Next, I moved to Chandelles. The chandelle is an altitude-gaining maneuver. 180-degree turn from crosswind to upwind to crosswind, using a constant 30-degree bank with steadily increasing pitch for the first 90 degrees, then constant 15-degrees-up pitch and decreasing bank for the second 90 degrees, leaving you just above the stall. Recover by leveling out and accelerating. In the Archer, I was gaining roughly 500 feet per chandelle.

Wind was out of the northwest (320@25) at 3,000 feet, and didn't change much up higher either. So, I started on a heading of 050 and did a chandelle to the left ending at 230, followed by another chandelle to the right ending at 050 again and so on. I ended up over a lake with a small almost-island in it (technically a peninsula, but the part joining it to land was much narrower than the rest) at about 7500 feet.

What to do with all that altitude? A steep spiral, of course! Just like turns around a point, only descending. Whee! :goofy: I used the "island" as my point and went down to about 2500 feet. Then, I did some steep turns followed by another chandelle series. This time, all the way up to 9500 and then fell out of the sky until about 4500 (there was another plane doing maneuvers below me at 3000-3500 by that point) and headed back in.

The only problem with doing steep turns and spirals at the same time as chandelles is that I was tending to overbank the chandelles! Some were messy, some were good. Some I did mostly on the instruments, some I tried to do 100% looking outside. I ended up eyeballing a 90 degree point before rolling in, and then a 180-degree point when I got to the 90-degree point. I can't see 15 degrees pitch up or an accurate 30 bank on the roll-in (especially after the steeper maneuvers as noted above.) It seems that the combo that worked the best was:

1) Stabilize at the entry airspeed
2) Eyeball the 90-degree point out the window
3) Roll in to 30 degrees on the AI and begin pitching up
4) Watch out the window while increasing pitch to the 90-degree point
5) Eyeball the 180-degree point quickly while approaching the 90-degree point.
6) Keep the yoke back as far as it was at the 90-degree point while rolling out
7) confirm the roll-out heading on the DG as it approaches (visual references obscured by the cowling)
8) Recover.

The first steep spiral was kind of messy too, as I wasn't holding the lower bank into the wind for enough time and I wasn't doing a good job of controlling airspeed (though I admit it was more FUN to let the nose drop in a 60-degree bank and get -2000fpm :D). It's also very difficult to eyeball the point you're turning around at the higher altitudes while still keeping the turn tight. High wing would be helpful.

The second time, I used the Merrimac ferry's northwest landing as my point for the steep spirals which turned out much better - I was able to at least see the river, the road, and the nearby railroad bridge to help me determine where that point was even when I couldn't see it up high. I also refined my banking technique somewhat, so the second steep spiral turned out very nicely.

Anyway, the end of the flight was pretty routine, except for two things. Approach had me enter a left downwind for 32 and handed me to tower quite a ways out. Because I was so far out, Tower requested a report at midfield downwind. (not-routine #1) I cut power abeam the numbers to practice the 180-degree accuracy landing. Base, final, runway's made, pull the flaps, slip just a bit and... Probably the best touchdown I've ever had in a Piper, maybe the second-best ever (best was in a DA40). A great way to end a fun flight. :yes: :)
 
Are those maneuvers hard on the gyros? I don't know, thats why I ask....I recall hearing somewhere intense maneuvering can damage? gyros?

Glad your having fun :)
 
Are those maneuvers hard on the gyros? I don't know, thats why I ask....I recall hearing somewhere intense maneuvering can damage? gyros?

Probably... But really, it's not all that intense. The steeper banks/high turn rates do create some noticeable effects in the DG. But, it's not aerobatics, just "performance maneuvers." :rolleyes: Certainly more wear and tear than straight and level, but probably not too overly bad.

And if it is, well, I'm doing this rating in a rental. :D
 
Uh Kent, we never entered Chandelles on the crosswind. Didn't do it on the commercial ride or in training, didn't do it on the CFI ride or in training. And you should be closer to 1000' of altitude gain, not 500'
 
Sounds like a fun flight.

Unfortunately for me, my initial comm is in a ME, thus I didn't get to do the chandelles, etc. I'll have to way until I add on the SE.
 
I hate chandelles and avoid them at all costs. :D

Sounds like you're training is coming along nicely. How long until your check?
 
Really? Why? I just thought they were boring.


I just never liked them. They seemed horribly inefficient for what you were trying to do, and I didn't much care for being 45 degrees nose high at the end and then figuring out what to do with the airplane from there. It was just a PITA.

I'd much rather just do a pitchback and achieve the same results.
 
Probably... But really, it's not all that intense. The steeper banks/high turn rates do create some noticeable effects in the DG. But, it's not aerobatics, just "performance maneuvers." :rolleyes: Certainly more wear and tear than straight and level, but probably not too overly bad.

And if it is, well, I'm doing this rating in a rental. :D

I don't see anything in the comm maneuvers that would be harmful to a gyro. It's just turns, climbs and descents.

And FWIW when I did my SE comm in the Porterfield, I had to put some thin tape strips on the windshield to give me a bank reference for 30 degrees and 55 degrees as it was difficult to get the angles correctly without that. On the checkride I could see them but the DE in back couldn't so I guess there was more room for error than usual.:D The toughest issue was that even at full throttle the pivotal altitude in an airplane with a top speed of about 60 mph in a turn is low enough to get you in trouble with the minimum altitude rules.
 
Uh Kent, we never entered Chandelles on the crosswind. Didn't do it on the commercial ride or in training, didn't do it on the CFI ride or in training. And you should be closer to 1000' of altitude gain, not 500'

Well, that's what the Kershner book says... I guess there's no mention of it in the PTS. If the AFH doesn't have anything, then it certainly doesn't matter which would be cool 'cuz I wouldn't have to pray for cardinal-direction winds aloft come checkride day (better visual references on the ground N/S/E/W).

As for the altitude gain... Well, it was in an Archer, not the Arrow. Missing 20 ponies, inefficient fixed prop, and gear hanging out in the wind. I'm sure the Arrow is more like 1000', but I wasn't paying attention last week. :redface:
 
Sounds like you're training is coming along nicely. How long until your check?

Well, considering I've only had one dual and one solo flight working on it so far, and I can't really fly during the week most of the time, it'll be a couple months I'm sure. I'm aiming to have it done before OSH.
 
Uh Kent, we never entered Chandelles on the crosswind. Didn't do it on the commercial ride or in training, didn't do it on the CFI ride or in training.

I did. My school taught this in order to keep you more in one place so that your multiple chandelles didn't turn into a cross-country. Neither the PTS nor the Airplane Flying Handbook specify what heading to use. We'd start on crosswind headings and turn into the wind.

And you should be closer to 1000' of altitude gain, not 500'

FWIW, according to the Airplane Flying Handbook:

Since numerous atmospheric variables beyond control of the pilot will affect the specific amount of altitude gained, the quality of the performance of the maneuver is not judged solely on the altitude gain, but by the pilot's overall proficiency as it pertains to climb performance for the power/bank combination used, and to the elements of piloting skill demonstrated.

Results may vary. I thought these were kind of fun in a 250-HP Trinidad... We couldn't do too many before winding up above 8,000 feet.
 
I liked the chandelles and got a hang of them right away. The steep spiral was cool, but hard on my ears sometimes. 8 s on pylons were ok.
Lazy 8 s got on my nerves a lot. I must've spent 1000 bucks trying to perfect that stupid move and the DE never asked me to do one. Haven't done one since my last lesson for my comm, and quite frankly, I'm not sure that I could.
The 180 power off is cool. I still practice that one from time to time.


The hardest part of training for the commercial for me, other than the lazy 8 s, was breaking the habit of looking at the instruments for every move. You do your IR and have to only fly instruments, then for the commercial, the CFI yells at you to look outside.

Have fun!
 
I get almost 1000 in my Cherokee :)

AFH and Gleim make no mention of wind direction for the Chandelle or Lazy 8's. Why Kershner would say enter on crosswind doesn't make sense. Every other manuever that takes wind into account you enter on downwind(ish). (S-turns, point, pylons, rectangular course).

Might be why two separate instructors had me enter it from downwind, because everything else is. Of course, when we'd do the second one we were into the wind, so who knows.
 
I did. My school taught this in order to keep you more in one place so that your multiple chandelles didn't turn into a cross-country. Neither the PTS nor the Airplane Flying Handbook specify what heading to use. We'd start on crosswind headings and turn into the wind.



FWIW, according to the Airplane Flying Handbook:



Results may vary. I thought these were kind of fun in a 250-HP Trinidad... We couldn't do too many before winding up above 8,000 feet.

Must be a cheeseland thing. On this side of the lake we can actually figure out how to stay in one area. Both DE's never said anything about using a crosswind when doing the Chandelle, and I said "we enter on downwind..."

What's wrong with being above 8,000?
 
My maneuvers are started on a crosswind with exception of chandelles and lazy eights. For those, I just pick the best distant visual fix to begin from abeam. However, the steep spiral is started downwind.
 
I just never liked them. They seemed horribly inefficient for what you were trying to do, and I didn't much care for being 45 degrees nose high at the end and then figuring out what to do with the airplane from there. It was just a PITA.

I'd much rather just do a pitchback and achieve the same results.

That is pretty much what I think as well. They were something to do because, well you gotta do them.
 
Are those maneuvers hard on the gyros? I don't know, thats why I ask....I recall hearing somewhere intense maneuvering can damage? gyros?

Glad your having fun :)
The steep turns are only 10 degrees steeper than the private pilot ones.

There are two completely different types of some commercial maneuvers - particularly chandelles and lazy 8s. There is the commercial PTS version and there is an aerobatic version. The aerobatic version of them is probably what you've heard about as being hard on the gyros. The commercial PTS versions are gentle, in keeping with the general philosophy of the commercial certifciate: show mastery of the airplane, but don't scare the passengers
 
The commercial PTS versions are gentle, in keeping with the general philosophy of the commercial certifciate: show mastery of the airplane, but don't scare the passengers
...uuumm, don't you mean..."don't scare the Examiner."?:rolleyes:

FWIW, when Flyingcheeshead listed his 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 points of "executing the maneuver", he left out the MAIN point, which is, keeping the ball centered.

All of the respondents who complain that these Chandelles and Lazy 8's don't have any PRACTICAL reason or purpose....the whole purpose and reason is to be able to keep the ball centered while changing the speed throughout the normal operating range from near stall to maneuvering speed. That is the purpose. Not nailing the speeds and banks and such. Those are operating parameters within which you should be able to operate and keep the ball centered.
 
The steep turns are only 10 degrees steeper than the private pilot ones.

The steep turns are only a minimum of 5 degrees steeper than the private pilot ones.

Commercial Pilot PTS said:
A. TASK: STEEP TURNS (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to steep turns.
2. Establishes the manufacturer's recommended airspeed or if one
is not stated, a safe airspeed not to exceed VA.
3. Rolls into a coordinated 360° steep turn with at least a 50° bank,
followed by a 360° steep turn in the opposite direction.
4. Divides attention between airplane control and orientation.
5. Maintains the entry altitude, ±100 feet (30 meters), airspeed,
±10 knots, bank, ±5°; and rolls out on the entry heading, ±10°.

Private Pilot PTS said:
TASK: STEEP TURNS (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to steep turns.
2. Establishes the manufacturer’s recommended airspeed or if one is
not stated, a safe airspeed not to exceed VA.
3. Rolls into a coordinated 360° turn; maintains a 45° bank.
4. Performs the task in the opposite direction, as specified by the
examiner.
5. Divides attention between airplane control and orientation.
6. Maintains the entry altitude, ±100 feet (30 meters), airspeed,
 
...uuumm, don't you mean..."don't scare the Examiner."?:rolleyes:
I was referring to the goal of the certificate, not the checkride. :D

Private Pilot: Basic safety. Can you get up and down without killing your family.

Instrument Pilot: Competence. If you screw up VFR, chances are that only you and those in your immediate circle will be affected. If you screw up IFR, you mess with the system.

Commercial Pilot: Don't scare the passengers.
 
I was referring to the goal of the certificate, not the checkride. :D

Private Pilot: Basic safety. Can you get up and down without killing your family.

Instrument Pilot: Competence. If you screw up VFR, chances are that only you and those in your immediate circle will be affected. If you screw up IFR, you mess with the system.

Commercial Pilot: Don't scare the passengers.

What's ATP?
 
Scott, if you go at least 50, and have to maintain +/-5 and you go below 50, you lose. Note the difference in the wording. Bank of at least 50 degree, and maintain 45 degrees. Commercial is flown at 55 degrees. That way the -5 keeps you AT LEAST 50. The PTS does not say maintain a 50 degree bank.
 
Scott, if you go at least 50, and have to maintain +/-5 and you go below 50, you lose. Note the difference in the wording. Bank of at least 50 degree, and maintain 45 degrees. Commercial is flown at 55 degrees. That way the -5 keeps you AT LEAST 50. The PTS does not say maintain a 50 degree bank.

I know. I was responding to the comment that they are "10 degrees more than private" That is not how it is written. If I do a 50 degree bank and hold it or only go to +5 degrees that would be legitimate. I am not saying that would be easy but it is within the PTS standards.
 
Scott, if you go at least 50, and have to maintain +/-5 and you go below 50, you lose.
There's no accounting for how a DPE or local FSDO is going to interpret this, but that's just not how the text is written, IMHO.

The text says that you roll into a turn with at least a 50 degree bank. Then you have to maintain the entry bank +-5 degrees.

If your entry bank is 50 degrees, and at some point in the maneuver you end up at 45 degrees, then you're still meeting both of these requirements, you rolled into a turn at 50 degrees, and maintained that entry bank within 5 degrees.

Nowhere does it say that you have to maintain at least 50 degrees throughout the entire maneuver.
-harry
 
Yeah because the DE is really going to let you slide by maintaing a 45 degree bank. Mine sure as hell wouldn't. But keep going ahead and promoting the bare minimum, it's the new american way.
 
If you stay within the 91.307 maneuver limits for no chutes and the Commercial PTS parameters for tolerances, you won't hurt the gyros by doing any of the Commercial maneuvers.
 
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Yeah because the DE is really going to let you slide by maintaing a 45 degree bank. Mine sure as hell wouldn't.
On my IR check-ride, my DPE didn't "let me slide" by making me do a steep turn under the hood, when that maneuver had long since been removed from the PTS. Hard to believe, but DPEs don't always have correct understanding of the PTS.

As I see it, there's no "letting you slide" to be done, though. As I read it, the PTS says 50 degrees plus or minus 5 meets the standard. If the FAA wanted us to wear 37 pieces of flair, they should have made the minimum 37.

But keep going ahead and promoting the bare minimum, it's the new american way.
I agree, and to do my part to prevent the erosion of God, America, Mom, and Democracy, I'm going to do 4 takeoffs and landings for currency, 7 instrument approaches, get flight reviews every 22 calendar months, and renew my medical after 34 months.
-harry
 
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A long time ago I seem to remember having to do 60 degree turns at the private pilot level. That was the early 80's, am I imagining that? If I am not when did it change and what were the commercial requirements back then.
 
I always thought that chandelles were a fun maneuver. They must be. Otherwise they wouldn't have named an airport in Delaware "Chandelle"!

You airplane types are gonna love this: the CP-RH PTS has no new maneuvers from the PP-RH PTS! None. Nada! You just have to do everything to a tighter tolerance and the autorotations involve turns instead of just straight-ins...
 
Why is it such a big deal whether it's 55 or 50? It should be 60. What's so hard about that?
 
A long time ago I seem to remember having to do 60 degree turns at the private pilot level. That was the early 80's, am I imagining that?
I believe you are imagining it. The PPL standard for steep turns has been 45 degrees since at least 1969 when I was going through that training. That's not to say that some rogue DPE didn't demand something else when you took your ride, but his demand was not supported by the PPL PTS.
 
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