Combining high performance, instrument training?

[BrianR]

I have recently (as in, yesterday -- see Club vs Renting thread under Flight Following) joined a flying club which provides access to a nice 182. Obviously, with a 230 hp engine, I will need a high performance endorsement to fly it solo. For pilots with under 100 hrs PIC (which includes me, with about 55 PIC) the club's insurance carrier requires 10 hours dual (five hours if over 100 hours PIC). I could wait until I log another 45 hours before I tackle the 182, but I would really like access to it for the occasional longer cross country trip.

Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, but I doubt it will really require 10 hours to become proficient with a constant-speed prop and a slightly faster airplane than I'm used to flying. Of course, I realize there's more to it than that, but it got me wondering.

As a new(er) private pilot, I am undecided on instrument training. I figured I'd fly a bit, build some time, see what kind of flights I'm really undertaking, then decide in a year or two. And, cost is a factor, having just spent over $10k to get my private ticket.

But I got to thinking, if I have to log 10 hours with a CFI, would it make sense to combine the high performance endorsement and the 182 checkout with the beginnings of instrument training? From what I'm told, the initial part of instrument training is simply working on accuracy with holding altitude and headings, which I really can do on my own without paying a CFI $40 per hour. However, if it would make sense to combine the instruction, I'm all for multi-tasking. But if I then don't pursue the instrument training for a while, would a few hours of instruction now just be a waste of time, which would need to be repeated down the road anyway?

 

[MSPAviator]

I combined my complex endorsement in a Piper Arrow with my instrument training.

I say go for it.

 

[poadeleted20]

First, doing your 182 checkout and HP endorsement in conjunction with your instrument rating is an excellent idea.

As for trying to do the initial parts of your instrument training on your own (or at least, with a non-instructor safety pilot), that's not such a good idea. Learning with an instructor and then practicing with a safety pilot can work well, but trying to teach yourself and/or practice what you haven't learned is not a recipe for success.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Call me a bit of a contrarian.

You got some good input over on the Red Board. Including the comment from Ron on not trying to do initial hoodwork with a safety pilot. It is pretty important that you have a CFII along for the first few hours just so you don't develop bad habits that have to be undone.

Having said that, I am not sure it is an "excellent idea", as Ron said, to combine the the HP checkout with instrument training, ESPECIALLY if the Warrior the club had is IFR equipped and you intend to ultimately use it to do the majority of your instrument time. You will spend at least a couple of hours relearning Warrior stuff.

Keep in mind, you will spend several hours "learning" the 182. How many depends on how quick you can pick up the operation of a heavier airplane that has more complicated systems (constant speed prop) before you can get into the instrument stuff.

Anyway, either way you go, additional training is never a bad idea.

 

[Richard]

I see two distinct goals in the OP. One, the IR. Two, the HP endorsement. I think you are making it more complex by confusing (comingling) the two. Break it down, ask why. Why do you want the IR? Why do you want the HP?

If the idea is to make yourself more qualified, ask qualified to what end?

I also detect in the OP a concern for costs (...paying $40 for the CFI). While this is always an important factor, this concern should be of less importance when receiving training. Oh sure, get the biggest bang for your buch but don't squabble over a few shekals during training.

Still, I suggest you better provide the reasons for the IR and HP for better advice.

 

[BrianR]

Good comments. Yeah, I posted the same question on both boards, since not everyone frequents both sites, and well, it's tough to have too much input!

I was not proposing to do hood work while flying alone. I was referring to practicing holding headings and altitudes precisely - which, from what I gather from talking to instrument pilots and reading the boards, is the first thing stressed in instrument training.

CountryAir - yes, two separate goals. The goal of HP would be able to fly the 182, which I would like to do for some specific trips I have in mind. The IR, as I noted, I'm not 100% sure I'll do that yet, as I want to fly more and develop a better idea for how much good it would do me. Granted, there's little argument that IR pilots are safer pilots, and that in itself may be enough of a goal.

Regarding the costs, no, the $40 per hour for the CFI isn't really an issue. But if I were to spend close to the $10k I spent on getting my private, to get the IR, that might be, at least right now.

 

[jesse]

From what I'm told, the initial part of instrument training is simply working on accuracy with holding altitude and headings, which I really can do on my own without paying a CFI $40 per hour.

The initial part of instrument training is the foundation for the rest and is extremely important. It is really doubtful you'll learn everything you need by doing it yourself. If you think it's just about holding a heading and an altitude - you're already wrong.

 

[denverpilot]

If you're unsure about continuing into Instrument, find out where the CFI wants to go and get a couple of longish XC's in. You can do some air work enroute. Slow flight, stalls, steep turns, have the CFI show you Commercial steep turns. Etc.

A good long XC gives you a feel for how fast the Skylane will get you there and experience in looking at the bigger weather picture. Especially since you said you'd be doing some 800nm trips each year.

If nothing else, do some of the flying under the hood in cruise on the XC and have the CFI work with you on the *emergency* procedure of keeping the bird upright and doing a 180 to exit an inadvertent cloud layer. That's another thing any non-IR private pilot somehow always seems to have a story about once they start really traveling out of the local weather system VFR.

Round out the 10 hours doing a pile of performance landings and takeoffs. Short, soft, crosswind. Anything you find a challenge. Use the 10 hours to soak up as much 182 knowledge as you can if you have to pay the CFI to sit there anyway.

Find a few fields that push the performance of the 182. Short. If your club allows it, grass.

Oh... another biggie. Find enough people, gas, and "stuff" to load it right up to max gross weight. It flies just a hair different that heavy. Might as well experience that for the first time with a CFI in the right seat. Less "Hmm, is this thing really going to fly?" questions running through your head later on.

If its not far away to do so, take it to a high altitude airport and see it chew up over 2500' of runway heavily loaded for takeoff. It feels like "forever" the first time.

Maybe, grab an oxygen bottle and head for the low teens. See what it's like to watch the ASI get slower and slower and re-leaning on the way up and enrichening on the way down. Do the groundspeed calculations way up there.

Not trying to turn you off on starting the Instrument. Just thinking of good options for the "traveling" VFR pilot.

Might as well "train like you're going to fight" so to speak.

Lots of envelope to explore in a 182.

One of my co-owners grabbed the oxygen and a pulse-OX monitor and headed up close to 15,000' MSL in our 182 one day, just to check out the climb performance up there. Kinda fun to be "almost in the Flight Levels" VFR away from congested airspace. Good view up there.

Have fun, enjoy the 182. And remember... the elevator keeps coming back after touchdown, all the way to the aft stop. It stays against your belly after that.

Be nice to that nosegear.

 

[crash7]

+1 on doing some cross country flying. You're going to need 50 PIC X/C hours when you take your IFR ride. Get some of that during the 10 hr insurance requirement for the 182. As was mentioned, good experience for when you launch on your own for those long trips. Meet the requirements for the Commercial X/C's and you'll have *that* out of the way if you decide to pursue that certificate in the future.

You want to have a pretty good handle on the aircraft you do your IFR training in. If you're still learning power settings and avionics while trying to learn the fundamentals of Instrument Flying, it's not going to work as well.

Our club used to have similar insurance requirements. We've got different insurance now, that leaves it up to the discression of the CFI. Different people take different amounts of time. But, 10 hours *is* a bit much for learning a 182.

My 1.5 cents...

 

[gismo]

Our club used to have similar insurance requirements. We've got different insurance now, that leaves it up to the discression of the CFI. Different people take different amounts of time. But, 10 hours *is* a bit much for learning a 182.

My 1.5 cents...

I agree, most pilots can transition from a 172 to a 182 in a lot less than 10 hours. Heck when I was a noobie my club only required 5 hours to transition from a 172 to a 177RG, most of which was spent doing landings. Of course the HP endosement involves more than just figuring out what to to with prop and cowl flap controls such as getting used to the higher speed induced need for planning further ahead and experiencing the difference between flight at light vs max weight so it should take at least a few hours. But as long as the rules require 10 hours you might as well put the extra time available once you've got the basics covered (e.g. prop and cowl flaps) to good use and initial IR training would be a good option for that. Baring that, I'd recommend that you focus on controlling the plane with as much precision and smoothness as possible while maneuvering. Learning how to hold altitude to within 10-20 ft and to make minute, barely perceptible but deliberate changes in bank, heading, pitch, and altitude will pay great dividends when you do start working on that IR and will improve the quality of your VFR flying in the meantime.

 

[dell30rb]

If you're unsure about continuing into Instrument, find out where the CFI wants to go and get a couple of longish XC's in. You can do some air work enroute. Slow flight, stalls, steep turns, have the CFI show you Commercial steep turns. Etc.

A good long XC gives you a feel for how fast the Skylane will get you there and experience in looking at the bigger weather picture. Especially since you said you'd be doing some 800nm trips each year.

If nothing else, do some of the flying under the hood in cruise on the XC and have the CFI work with you on the *emergency* procedure of keeping the bird upright and doing a 180 to exit an inadvertent cloud layer. That's another thing any non-IR private pilot somehow always seems to have a story about once they start really traveling out of the local weather system VFR.

Round out the 10 hours doing a pile of performance landings and takeoffs. Short, soft, crosswind. Anything you find a challenge. Use the 10 hours to soak up as much 182 knowledge as you can if you have to pay the CFI to sit there anyway.

Find a few fields that push the performance of the 182. Short. If your club allows it, grass.

Oh... another biggie. Find enough people, gas, and "stuff" to load it right up to max gross weight. It flies just a hair different that heavy. Might as well experience that for the first time with a CFI in the right seat. Less "Hmm, is this thing really going to fly?" questions running through your head later on.

If its not far away to do so, take it to a high altitude airport and see it chew up over 2500' of runway heavily loaded for takeoff. It feels like "forever" the first time.

Maybe, grab an oxygen bottle and head for the low teens. See what it's like to watch the ASI get slower and slower and re-leaning on the way up and enrichening on the way down. Do the groundspeed calculations way up there.

Not trying to turn you off on starting the Instrument. Just thinking of good options for the "traveling" VFR pilot.

Might as well "train like you're going to fight" so to speak.

Lots of envelope to explore in a 182.

One of my co-owners grabbed the oxygen and a pulse-OX monitor and headed up close to 15,000' MSL in our 182 one day, just to check out the climb performance up there. Kinda fun to be "almost in the Flight Levels" VFR away from congested airspace. Good view up there.

Have fun, enjoy the 182. And remember... the elevator keeps coming back after touchdown, all the way to the aft stop. It stays against your belly after that.

Be nice to that nosegear.

^ Hit the nail on the head

I think you can / should get some good hood time in while doing the h/p endorsement. Push your envelope (hood flying counts for this) and you'll have more fun flying with your friends/family. It sucks to experience something new with a passenger so try and do as much as you can with the instructor. Focus on your weak points - fly into a big class B or take a cross country trip to the mountains etc...

have fun with the 182

If you have never done stalls under the hood, steep turns or unusual attitude recovery make sure you specifically request these! Do em partial panel too. Lots o fun

 

[Luvrv8]

I was able to transition from my 172 to the 182 in much less then 10 hrs. Now I am training for my IFR cert and find myself low on CC time. Like others said fly the 182 on some CC flights and get that CC time up. The only regret I have from my check out in a 182 is I understand how slow my 172 really is.