Combine hood time and dual night xc?

[jFlight]

Hi All, I like the amount of activity here, and knowledge...seems to be the most active GA message boards I can find. ...Actually, I'm a bit surprised I haven't found more message board activity for GA, as compared to some of my other hobbies. Are there any other really active GA forums? I've found the Vans AF page. I'm more into the tech and training threads than non-topic discussion.

As I just hit 40 hours in a C172...I have a question in regards to minimizing my dual training for PPL cert.:

Can you combine hood time with dual night xc? Someone at my flight school (a 161 school catering to foreign students) mentioned his examiner said this wasn't possible. The claim was night xc is vfr and hood time, better appropriated as flight with reference to instruments only, was simulated instrument. However, I cannot find this in the FAR. Still looking...anyone have a quick pointer?

Thanks!

*****

Did some solo work today...3rd solo flight...in a different 172 (M vs. N) than the 172 I typically fly. More lift, more power. Took 3 landings to get the feel down, due to a different set rudder trim, lighter controls, and more power at idle. After 3 patterns, hitting the practice area, and 3 more patterns, I was cleared the runway at first crossing for the first time...400 ft from threshold. w00t!

 

[Henning]

I can't see any reason why one couldn't combine night and hood, but I wouldn't suggest that they be exclusively combined as you should get a good realization of the visual and perceptual differences at night and why you should have at least a modicum of instrument reference control skills while doing so.

 

[JeffDG]

I did it...I think I had the hood on for my whole Night XC (sans takeoff and landing).

A lot of my other "night" stuff was without the hood as Henning said.

One of my favourite demonstrations was my last night-student flight, the CFI made me take my headset off (towered field) and covered the instruments and turned out the lights...had to get a feel for judging the speed of the plane by engine and wind noise, and land without the landing light (well, the runway was lit up like a christmas tree)

Oops, I missed that you're part 141...Part 141 schools have an FAA approved syllabus and curriculum that they have to follow.

 

[poadeleted20]

Actually, the OP said s/he was at a "161" school, which could be a typo for either 141 or 61. Under 141, you do what the TCO syllabus says, and that's the end of that. Under part 61, yes, you can combine the hood work with the night XC, but personally, I think that doing the entire flight under the hood defeats the purpose of the exercise, which is supposed to be learning how to navigate by visual references at night. I might give my trainee some hood time on one leg, to get them some night instrument flight experience, but most of it is going to be visual. If you do it all under tha hood, you might as well do it in daylight for all the night flying skill that would develop. Of course, if your only purpose is to get the ticket in minimum time without concern towards building the practical skills you will need later, be my guest.

 

[TMetzinger]

I love flying at night under the hood.... when I'm trying to practice flying on instruments. It removes many of the subtle cues that are present in daylight and makes the experience closer to "actual" in my opinion.

However, if you're training for a rating and the syllabus calls for night VFR X/C time, then (as Ron said) the whole point is to build your skills for flying/navigating at night using your eyeballs and the view out the windows.

 

[Velocity173]

Combining hood and night is legal for FAA logging. In the Army the two are as different as day and night and must be logged separately.

 

[jFlight]

Oops, sorry for the confusion! I am a Part 61 student at a 141 school.

I appreciate the comments in regards to minimizing my training, and the potential effect on my safety and skills. So far, I have over 5 hours of night flight. Night flying in my area is also relatively easy, with so many landmarks and lights to follow around. I do enjoy flying at night! I just have to check-off the 100nm XC flight.

At this point, I am trying to minimize the dual instruction to save on cost. The school is used to catering to foreign students who “enjoy” taking longer to get through training, on their parents’ bank accounts. At a certain point, I realized I need to be more cognizant in ensuring my aeronautical experience checkboxes were being checked off.

I still have 3 hrs solo XC to complete, 3 hrs additional solo, and the dual night XC. At that point, it’s up to me to see how much practice I need to be ready for the checkride!

I suppose I just need a solid understanding of the FAR limitations in regard to the ability/inability to combine “with reference to instruments only” and dual night XC. One student (and worker) at the school said his examiner said this wasn’t allowed, referencing something in the FAR (but the student can’t recall what section), and made him go fly again before his checkride.

 

[poadeleted20]

Oops, sorry for the confusion! I am a Part 61 student at a 141 school.

So that's what "Part 161" means.

I appreciate the comments in regards to minimizing my training, and the potential effect on my safety and skills. So far, I have over 5 hours of night flight. Night flying in my area is also relatively easy, with so many landmarks and lights to follow around. I do enjoy flying at night! I just have to check-off the 100nm XC flight.

If you're proficient at night navigation outside the pattern already, then I don't see a problem with doing most of that flight under the hood to kill multiple birds with single stones. Most PP trainees these days get only the minimum 3.0, half of which is just going around the pattern for their ten landings.

I still have 3 hrs solo XC to complete, 3 hrs additional solo, and the dual night XC.

How much instrument time do you have so far? And how good are you at the required flight-by-instrument tasks, especially the recovery from unusual attitudes?

I suppose I just need a solid understanding of the FAR limitations in regard to the ability/inability to combine “with reference to instruments only” and dual night XC. One student (and worker) at the school said his examiner said this wasn’t allowed, referencing something in the FAR (but the student can’t recall what section), and made him go fly again before his checkride.

It would be interesting to get the examiner's exact answer to that question, since I know of nothing in the regulations to support that position.

 

[AuntPeggy]

<snip>

It would be interesting to get the examiner's exact answer to that question, since I know of nothing in the regulations to support that position.

And Cap'n Ron is resident expert on FARs.