colorblindness

[Daveroo]

ok..i admit i have not looked at all of the posts,im running out of time today...i wont ever beable to get my lic or cert as you call it due to other medical problems..(mostly a broken back)..but back in 1980 i wanted to try to get a pilots lic..i was told no imediatly without even being admited into a program...because im colorblind...as far as i know...it still holds..but i once read in a magazine that they (FAA) lifted the requirment to daylight VFR only for colorblind people...and that the LSA class can also be colorblind.....

any truth to these points?

also..with the new "flat panel" systems coming standard on so many AC now...will it change in the future?...
im colorblind to mostly red/green and blues/purples all look the same to me,but i can see the PAPI lights both in the real world ( going for rides with friends) and i can also see them and use them (PAPI's) in MS flight simulator X,and the flat panels are very easy for me to use and see...i do have some trouble with the steam gauges in older planes...

 

[ScottM]

Can you say more about your broken back?

I had a spinal fracture, C1&C2, back when I was 19. 22 fractures all told in those two vertebra, halo traction for 3 months. Had to learn to walk again and am left with minor paralysis of my fingers and toes. I hold a 3rd class medical, even had a 2nd class for a while. I even get a medical disability pension from the USAF but it was a really simple hurtle to overcome for my medical if that helps for you at all.


BTW I know a couple of colorblind pilots. That too is something that can be dealt with. But I do not know what the current hoops that need to be jumped through are. Dr. Bruce can answer that.

 

[X3 Skier]

If you flunk the color test on your medical exam and the rest is OK, you will get a Medical Certificate with a restriction to day flight only and no flying where it requires the use of Color guns by the tower (like, for example, when your aircraft has no or defective radio and you are operating at an airport with a control tower).

There are several ways to remove the restriction but I never bothered.

Cheers

 

[colojo]

I'm colorblind and so I took the light test, which I passed. Like you, I have more difficulty seeing reflected colors than colored light sources. I received an additional piece of paper called a "Statement of Demonstrated Ability" which I must carry with my medical. It never expires and allows me to fly day or night VFR and IFR.

 

[SkyHog]

Just cheat the test. If you want to know how, PM me.

 

[bbchien]

Just cheat the test. If you want to know how, PM me.

What is it with you, Nick?(!)

Daveroo, there are over fifteen different color vision tests in the AME guide find one you can pass. failing that, find one who can do an asessment if you can pass the Waiver. I managed to teach a tritanope sufficiently to pass the First Class waiver ride. He's flying 135 now....

The reason Nick's advice is terrible- I have a 31 y.o captain who has been struggling with various color dot tests all his life. Can't do the Farnsworth, either. He's at that break point- still no kids, no wife- but the minue that happens, he'll have sooo very much at stake every year. He could lose it all. So we're preparing him for the waiver ride. He'll pass and never have to worry about it again.

 

[Daveroo]

thanks to everyone who replied...i had no idea that there was a real possibility for me to fly with my colorblind issue,and to answer Bazinga's question about my back..i broke the L3 vert,and wiped out 4 disc's ,,im "screwed and fused" L2 to S1,..12 titanium screws,,5 have broken and all 4 fusions have failed,if i can figure out how to post a photo,i will post a couple xray scans from 2002 i believe..4 of the broken screws can be seen...

to me..the issue is the meds im on that would now stop me from flying...i believ id need further back surgery to reduce my pain,and relieve my dependance..no no..my usage of meds...im not abusing...my doctor and i watch that closely..im an ex firefighter and have many law enforcement friends...im not going to allow myself to become addicted..

if Dr Bruce looks at this...my pain scale 0 to 10..is a constant 8,with 10 spikes daily...and im not stretching the truth..

ok..cant post a photo from your HD?....just from a website like photobucket?

 

[JasonM]

Dave, do you seriously have a consistent 8-10 pain problem on a daily basis? You literally feel the most pain you could ever imagine daily?

When I was younger I had back surgery from racing injuries. I thought the same way until I healed up and then ended up spiral breaking my femur into 3 big long pieces while racing again. I can remember that pain and screaming/cussing/crying and just plain wishing I would pass out to this day. I'm not trying to say you are not in pain, but what I am getting at; is that your pain may be more manageable than you think.

It would stink to not follow your dreams due to some dag-on medication. Exercise and weight control did wonders for me. Maybe not for you. Good luck to you.

 

[bbchien]

if Dr Bruce looks at this...my pain scale 0 to 10..is a constant 8,with 10 spikes daily...and im not stretching the truth..

8 to 10 means you're on bigtime meds, which you have to be off of (ALL OF THEM) to fly.....and there's plenty of good reason for that.

 

[poadeleted20]

BTW, any good CFI should be able to put you through the paces the FAA will on a Special Medical Flight Test for colorblindness (with no risk) so you know where you stand. Any CFI who doesn't know how to do that can find out by going here and searching for "OCVT" (operational color vision test).

 

[Daveroo]

JM..yes....my daily pain is that high...im fully disabled,my last SSD medical eval i was told i wont be reviewed again for a minimum of 10 years which will put me over the 55 year old mark anyway,the reason this is important to your question?...they review yearly..OR every 5 years,until age 55,then disablity changes to regular SSA or SSI from SSD.
and yes im on heavy medication ,norco three times a day..along with 2 other types of pain killers and muscle relaxers ,i gave up my drivers lic and sold my truck several years ago.

i didnt really start this post thread to get advice on how to get a private pilots lic...i was just curious as the the truth about colorblindness and pilots abilities..ive often thought it was odd that the military didnt allow colorblind pilots...again this is what ive allways been told..i have no idea as to the truth...but i know from experience that i can spot anything thats been camouflaged 75% of the time..or better than a color sighted person can.back pre-injury,i helped local law enforcement many times in searches to locate people and "items" others could not see..

 

[poadeleted20]

Norco? That's acetaminophen and hydrocodone, right? The FAA will not let you fly anything while you're taking an opioid painkiller.

As for the colorblindness, the bottom line is yes, it's possible to fly with colorblindness. If you can pass the OCVT, you can get cleared for all flying, but even if you can't, you can still get cleared for daytime flying.

 

[oldShar]

If one can either cheat their way through it (or practice hard until it can be passed);
What the heck is the point of having the test?


Either mandate passage or restrict operations, or get rid of the damned thing and stop playing Political Correctness or Feel Good operations

 

[SkyHog]

If one can either cheat their way through it (or practice hard until it can be passed);
What the heck is the point of having the test?


Either mandate passage or restrict operations, or get rid of the damned thing and stop playing Political Correctness or Feel Good operations

Bingo. Doubt the FAA will start listening to reason now though.

 

[X3 Skier]

If one can either cheat their way through it (or practice hard until it can be passed);
What the heck is the point of having the test?


Either mandate passage or restrict operations, or get rid of the damned thing and stop playing Political Correctness or Feel Good operations

Like a lot of things FAA, it doesn't have to be logical, color blindness, monovision OK with implants, not OK with contacts, Class III physicals..... OTOH, it's the rules and if you don't like the rules, play another game.

Cheers

 

[poadeleted20]

Like a lot of things FAA, it doesn't have to be logical, color blindness, monovision OK with implants, not OK with contacts, Class III physicals..... OTOH, it's the rules and if you don't like the rules, play another game.

As Bruce has explained before, there are good medical reasons for the FAA's two apparently conflicting positions on monovision correction. With the surgical modification, the monovision is permanent, and the brain adapts for depth perception. However, that adaptation takes time (days/months, not minutes/hours), and is reversed if the monovision is switched back. So, with contacts, which are normally not worn full-time, the visual perception changes every time the contacts are inserted and removed, and the full adaptation never occurs. We saw the result of that in the Delta 727 crash at LGA some years back, in which the Captain, who was flying, was using monovision contacts and blew the approach, hitting short of the runway.

 

[X3 Skier]

As Bruce has explained before, there are good medical reasons for the FAA's two apparently conflicting positions on monovision correction. With the surgical modification, the monovision is permanent, and the brain adapts for depth perception. However, that adaptation takes time (days/months, not minutes/hours), and is reversed if the monovision is switched back. So, with contacts, which are normally not worn full-time, the visual perception changes every time the contacts are inserted and removed, and the full adaptation never occurs. We saw the result of that in the Delta 727 crash at LGA some years back, in which the Captain, who was flying, was using monovision contacts and blew the approach, hitting short of the runway.

Yes I read the report and have also read Dr B's discussions.

Is 20+ years long enough to adapt? I understand the FAA position but I have been wearing monovision contacts every waking hour for the past 20+ years and my brain has adapted quite well. Without contacts I cant see my hand in front of my face so I wear them all the time except when my eyes are closed when sleeping. When taking the vision test with distance lenses and readers, I just barely pass since my brain has to adapt to the new situation and just barely manages.

I ski at over 50 MPH, bike at 30+ MPH, was a pretty fair Basketball player from 3 Point range, and do numerous other activities including driving nails without mashing my thumb all requiring pretty good depth perception and all while wearing monovision lenses.

What is illogical to me is why my better vision and depth perception with monovision isn't accepted and I am legally required to fly what in my opinion is a less safe manner. But it's the rules so that is the end of the discussion.

Cheers

PS: Since I pass my drivers eye test with my monovision lenses I assume it is OK with the FAA to fly with them in the LSA category since all that's required is a valid driver's license. It does say I must wear corrective lenses but doesn't say what kind.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is 20+ years long enough to adapt?

Sure -- as long as you don't take them out. But in that case, I strongly suspect other eye problems would develop.

 

[X3 Skier]

Sure -- as long as you don't take them out. But in that case, I strongly suspect other eye problems would develop.

They are out at night while sleeping and even now, you can get FDA Approved soft contacts to sleep with in for up to a week IIRC. I really doubt my brain readjusts away from monovision overnight while I am sleeping with my eyes shut since I can see fine when I put them back in.

My annual exams with my opthamologist results a a clean bill of health after these 20+ years with monovision and 50+ years with regular contacts wearing continuously during waking hours with a comment my eyes, except for needing correction, are in excellent condition.

Cheers

 

[poadeleted20]

They are out at night while sleeping and even now, you can get FDA Approved soft contacts to sleep with in for up to a week IIRC. I really doubt my brain readjusts away from monovision overnight while I am sleeping with my eyes shut since I can see fine when I put them back in.

My annual exams with my opthamologist results a a clean bill of health after these 20+ years with monovision and 50+ years with regular contacts wearing continuously during waking hours with a comment my eyes, except for needing correction, are in excellent condition.

Cheers

Whatever you say, but medical science and the accident record seem to disagree.

 

[X3 Skier]

Whatever you say, but medical science and the accident record seem to disagree.

One 727 accident? Are there others? Just asking. I would like to read them if possible to better understand.

And as far as Medical Science, there are a number of medical tests for depth perception that can be used to check your vision. It is or was a standard test for the military. If this were tested on request or the results from an optthamologist given to the AME, it seems to me that should be sufficient for a Class III. Of course, if the implant version requires testing, use the same test. If they don't, do the testing for contacts at the airman's expense.

OTOH, it's easier for the FAA to just make a blanket rule to CYA.

And am I correct about it being OK to fly with monovision in the LSA world?

It's a minor problem to me but I still think it is illogical for a fully adapted and tested person to be prohibited from using monovision lenses in a Warrior but fine in a Skycatcher with just the driver license test.

Cheers

 

[bbchien]

One 727 accident? Are there others? Just asking. I would like to read them if possible to better understand.

And as far as Medical Science, there are a number of medical tests for depth perception that can be used to check your vision.

Depth perception has nothing to do with color.

It is or was a standard test for the military. If this were tested on request or the results from an optthamologist given to the AME, it seems to me that should be sufficient for a Class III. Of course, if the implant version requires testing, use the same test. If they don't, do the testing for contacts at the airman's expense.

OTOH, it's easier for the FAA to just make a blanket rule to CYA.

And am I correct about it being OK to fly with monovision in the LSA world?

It's a minor problem to me but I still think it is illogical for a fully adapted and tested person to be prohibited from using monovision lenses in a Warrior but fine in a Skycatcher with just the driver license test.

Cheers

None other so well studied. But the PRESSURE to act (which took ten years) was from Aviation Subcommittee Chairman James Oberstar, who was relentless. Look up AAR-04/02.

 

[X3 Skier]

Depth perception has nothing to do with color.None other so well studied. But the PRESSURE to act (which took ten years) was from Aviation Subcommittee Chairman James Oberstar, who was relentless. Look up AAR-04/02.

My comments are addressing the use of monovision contacts, not color deficiency which if I read correctly was the main topic of AAR 04/02 and the resulting recommendation. I have also read the discussion of the DL 727 that was attributed to the pilot's unadapted use of monovision contacts.

The testing I was discussing was for depth perception which as you note has nothing to do with color.

My comment was if there is a viable test for adaptation to monovision such as that used by the military to test depth perception, it seemed to me it could be used to show a person can adapt and correctly perceive distances and thus could fly safely with monovision contact lenses in GA Aircraft as well as LSA which seems to be perfectly OK since one can obtain a driver's licence with monvision contacts.

Of course rules are rules, even if some situations it is less safe.

Cheers

 

[poadeleted20]

My comment was if there is a viable test for adaptation to monovision such as that used by the military to test depth perception, it seemed to me it could be used to show a person can adapt and correctly perceive distances and thus could fly safely with monovision contact lenses in GA Aircraft as well as LSA which seems to be perfectly OK since one can obtain a driver's licence with monvision contacts.

Let's say you wear your monovision contacts all day every day for several months, and achieve perfect adaptation. Then for some reason you go a few days without wearing them, using your glasses instead -- your adaptation fades, and you may even have problems with depth perception with the glasses as your eyes readapt. The reason they let monovision eyeballs fly is because they are permanently altered, and once adaption occurs there is no loss of adaption or readaption unless the eyes are again surgically altered back from monovision.

 

[X3 Skier]

Let's say you wear your monovision contacts all day every day for several months, and achieve perfect adaptation. Then for some reason you go a few days without wearing them, using your glasses instead -- your adaptation fades, and you may even have problems with depth perception with the glasses as your eyes readapt. The reason they let monovision eyeballs fly is because they are permanently altered, and once adaption occurs there is no loss of adaption or readaption unless the eyes are again surgically altered back from monovision.

I don't even have any glasses.

The scenario you mention is exactly what happens when I use distance lenses and readers and why I suggested a test for Depth Perception.

If I want to fly with monovision contact lenses, it's LSA or sailplanes but not GA to stay FAA legal which is why I first stated it seems illogical to me. Or wait until cataracts catch up with me.

Cheers

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't even have any glasses.

The scenario you mention is exactly what happens when I use distance lenses and readers and why I suggested a test for Depth Perception.

If I want to fly with monovision contact lenses, it's LSA or sailplanes but not GA to stay FAA legal which is why I first stated it seems illogical to me. Or wait until cataracts catch up with me.

Cheers

Everyone thinks they're special, but the FAA doesn't (and cannot) make the rules on that basis.

 

[X3 Skier]

Everyone thinks they're special, but the FAA doesn't (and cannot) make the rules on that basis.

I don't think I or anyone else is special to the FAA and never suggested it. Well, maybe those with Special Issuances are "special".

My entire focus in this thread has been to a) suggest this restriction seems illogical to me since it doesn't apply to LSA or sailplanes and b) there is an existing test to verify depth perception that could be used IF the FAA desired to do so.

Repeatedly replying about the rules which I completely understand has not addressed those two points.

If my interpretation about LSA is not correct, please let me know.

If the military test for depth perception which is also used for other eye disfunctions is useless or irrelevant for testing monovision depth perception I would like to know that as well. As a related question, is a person who has surgically implanted monovision lenses tested for depth perseption and if so, how? As I understand it, it requires an opthamologist to have the person wear monovision lenses three months prior to assure adaptation and wait three months after the operation before resuming flying.

And to repeat, I am not special, understand how and why the rule came about, follow it and am just looking for the answer to the two points about monovision which have not been addressed in any reply unless I missed it. If I have, I apologize and please point out the appropriate post.

Cheers

 

[bbchien]

I don't think I or anyone else is special to the FAA and never suggested it. Well, maybe those with Special Issuances are "special".

My entire focus in this thread has been to a) suggest this restriction seems illogical to me since it doesn't apply to LSA or sailplanes and b) there is an existing test to verify depth perception that could be used IF the FAA desired to do so.

A third class lets you fly a 747. Like Travolta. AN LSA can hardly do that sort of damage. Perfectly logical

 

[X3 Skier]

A third class lets you fly a 747. Like Travolta. AN LSA can hardly do that sort of damage. Perfectly logical

Thanks. Wasn't thinking of that as the biggest I have flown this go around is a Comanche.

(Except for some assorted minimun time in T-39, CH-3C, C-130 and F-14 back in the day when I had passed the rag test for color perception.)

Any comment of the depth perception testing?

Appreciate the response.

Cheers

 

[bbchien]

Depth cures: That's been operationally verified at 90 days after burned in monovision correction to be present. Trouble is, contact. Sometimes in, sometimes out-->brain doesn't get it.

If there were a question, the OCVT would be the answer.

 

[X3 Skier]

Depth cures: That's been operationally verified at 90 days after burned in monovision correction to be present. Trouble is, contact. Sometimes in, sometimes out-->brain doesn't get it.

If there were a question, the OCVT would be the answer.

Thanks again but isn't the OCVT The Operational Color Vision Test? I was asking about Depth Percetion tests like the dot test or others used for depth perception or is OCVT used for depth perception IF there is a test required after surgically implanted monovision lenses.

When I read this about the OCVT
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...m/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item52/amd/
It did not mention depth perception.

Cheers

 

[bbchien]

Thanks again but isn't the OCVT The Operational Color Vision Test? I was asking about Depth Percetion tests like the dot test or others used for depth perception or is OCVT used for depth perception IF there is a test required after surgically implanted monovision lenses.

When I read this about the OCVT
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...m/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item52/amd/
It did not mention depth perception.

Cheers

There is no simple office test for depth perception. I say again, there is no depth perception test. The evaluation occurs in an airplane (can the guy land the d_mn thing?".

But it is known that with monovision (burned in, not contacts) after three months, pilots have managed to learn the "other" depth cues and flare normally. It has also been demonstrated that if you have monovision contacts you need to stop flying.

We don't re-do type rides because you got PRK monovision...

I thought this sting was labelled, "colorblindness"....why are you hanging on to this?

 

[X3 Skier]

There is no simple office test for depth perception. I say again, there is no depth perception test. The evaluation occurs in an airplane (can the guy land the d_mn thing?".

But it is known that with monovision (burned in, not contacts) after three months, pilots have managed to learn the "other" depth cues and flare normally. It has also been demonstrated that if you have monovision contacts you need to stop flying.

We don't re-do type rides because you got PRK monovision...

I thought this sting was labelled, "colorblindness"....why are you hanging on to this?

It got diverted by my comment on what I thought was an illogical difference from LSA to Class III. You pointed out a rational reason for which I thanked you.

The questions about monovision testing was in relation to the future possibility of my having PRK monovision as a result of cataract surgery and if it was tested by some means. I just came back from my annual visit from my opthamologist who gave me a clean bill of health.

Thanks for your patience and I will "let go" since my specific questions have been answered without just a quoting of the rule. I use this board to ask question about things I don't understand and eventually get good insight about those things.

BTW, I do not fly with monovision lenses per the rules and plan on investigating multi focal contact lenses in the future.

Cheers

 

[bbchien]

Monovision practitioners have you wear monovision contacts for 3 months just to insure you CAN make the adjustment.

Then you are down for 3 months after. That's a long time. If you are getting the feeling FAA discourages this, I think you are reading it correctly.

I just carry 1.25 cheaters for shop work, and my blended bifocals for day to day. sigh.