Colorado southbound through Denver airspace

NoHeat

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I'd like to depart southbound from either Ft. Collins/Loveland or Greeley, heading 160 degrees toward west Texas, and then return. A direct route would take me right through the heart of Denver's class Bravo.

Two questions:

How hard is this?

Would VFR or IFR be best for an IFR pilot who has never experienced a DP or STAR?
 
Denver TAC - backside shows north and southbound VFR corridors.
 
I'd probably go IFR. But you can just "step up" with the Bravo ("step down for return") and use VFR flight following. I've done it both was into and out of KAPA (with a CFII since I'm still a VFR pilot). Denver is busy no doubt, but the controllers will typically work with you and even advise when you can step-up if you want to under the B. Get a Denver TAC too.
 
Use the VFR corridors, and once past the DEN mess turn the radio off and enjoy the trip.
 
The back of the Denver TAC where the VFR transition routes are published, is not available in Foreflight and the like, sadly. You are probably going to have to get a paper copy of the TAC. This is a problem with Foreflight and other electronic charts right now. I don't know of any that have the VFR transition routes on the back of the TAC charts.

You have a choice... plan to go around the West side, or around the East side. :) They'll probably work with you, but plan to go around. Be mildly surprised when they vector you straight through. Plan for the worst, hope for better. :)

They're not typically that keen on directly over the top of DIA. As Greg says, the VFR routes they "like" are published on the TAC, but for an answer for ya... since if you work with them, they'll usually get you headed the right direction fairly quick... request a Bravo transition early, with final cruising altitude requested and next waypoint, and they'll usually work with ya.

(I just plotted KFNL - KDHT since you didn't say where you're going in Texas, but yup... right over the top of DIA.)

So... your options are:

- If you're in something that can climb to 13,500 from 5,016' MSL in 10 miles, you're above the Bravo. (12,000 actually, but you're eastbound VFR, I assume... so 13,500'). You can just go over the top. Talking to DEN TRACON, highly recommended. Keeping an eye out for airliners climbing out, even more recommended.

- Remain West of I-25 below the Bravo shelf, and follow the VFR southbound route published, generally West of KBJC and on down the foothills, until clear of the Bravo to the South.

- Run over to GLL and then see if they'll let you cut the corner following V611. I only mention V611, because they'll know where it is. You can ask for it and they'll know they can ignore you and you'll follow it. (Watch out at GLL, lots of Instrument students using all the approaches based off of GLL for training at GXY and FNL. Busy place in the sky up there.)

Basically, start talking to Denver Center right after departing KFNL and they'll try to work you through the Bravo with DEN TRACON. They may or may not coordinate with the TRACON to see if you can get a more direct route. Once talking to TRACON, ask politely again... it's pretty common for ZDV not to ask them for a routing through the Bravo for you. Depends on the TRACON controller that day, and which direction DIA is landing/departing.

They're quite friendly and helpful, really. Unless you're plowing through the area during a massive rush of airliners at "bank time" for DIA.

IFR, they're just going to vector you where they want you anyway. File the Denver Five and an Exit VOR, and be done with it as long as you think you can cross DEN at 11,000' MSL or above. Don't get lost if you go NORDO. :)

All the rest of the SIDs I've tried, they just vector you all over hell and back anyway, then drop you in the middle of an outer segment of the SID. The only one even close to the direction you want to go is the Pikes Four, and it's going to PUB, which isn't East enough.

(Doing a lookup of recently approved routes in Foreflight, it looks like the most commonly approved filing from KFNL to KDHT is direct LUFSE right off the bat, so they're just approving the straight route and expecting to vector, looks like to me. Might as well just file DENVER FIVE if they're going to do that.)

If you're non-GPS, don't get suckered into trying to fly V81 southbound. If you look at the IFR chart, the 325 radial off of the COS VOR is listed as unusable for IFR, but no warning at all on the VFR chart. The Palmer Divide apparently does something naughty blocked-signal-wise to the COS VOR north of Colorado Springs.

Why V81 is still depicted on the VFR chart when it's listed as GPS only on the IFR chart, is beyond me. I guess they don't have any way to note that on a VFR chart?

The V611 route off of GLL is "nicer" in that at least you can wander up to 9500' MSL and just continue the climb as soon as you're clear of the Bravo if they're busy. Or decide to go a little further East and pop out from underneath and on up to whatever your cruise altitude is.

You can wander along US 34 there on the north edge of the Bravo easily with outside landmarks and the big reservoir (Riverside) shows when you're past the 8000' MSL shelf to the north. So it's East over Greeley, on to the big reservoir, and then turn south. Easy-peasy.
 
- Remain West of I-25 below the Bravo shelf, and follow the VFR southbound route published, generally West of KBJC and on down the foothills, until clear of the Bravo to the South.

West of I-25, but East of BJC.

After passing the stadium, angle left, and look for Cherry creek res. Go over that, then just right(SE) of Aurora res. Chat with KAPA at the stadium. Or - just go on down to Chatfield res, and then angle left.
 
West of I-25, but East of BJC.

After passing the stadium, angle left, and look for Cherry creek res. Go over that, then just right(SE) of Aurora res. Chat with KAPA at the stadium. Or - just go on down to Chatfield res, and then angle left.

Unless there is a game on. :) Rockies or Broncos

I've seldom been clearing into the Bravo except the fringes low and high. DEN works all four quadrants so there isn't much room. Even bizjets into BJC or APA beg for and seldom get a decent clearance. As others have posted, east or west around.
 
Just climb on the 33 DME arc clockwise to 12,500 and then head direct when you get to 12.5.....you're far enough out that there's going to be very little mileage penalty. Once you have transitioned, descent to 11.5 (correct for direction). I don't want to be "rebel" but I think with the LANDR Six arrival coming in from the NE they're going to want you well about 8,000 anyway. So you might as well do the climb - and by the time you get there, you will be able to turn 160 anyway.

You are so far E on the North side, that the NS corridors will cost you the same distance penalty, too.
 
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Thanks everyone, including Nate for his very detailed post.

I'll start by ordering a copy of the Terminal Area Chart so that I can inspect its backside.

It's just amazing that there's no depiction of those VFR corridors to be found online! It almost seems like I'm ordering a hidden-treasure map. Once I've got it, I'll feel like I'm part of a secret society.
 
The problem on your route is that KDEN's typical runways are N-S, so coming right over the airport (and interfering with departure and arrival paths) is not too likely (why folks don't look at the chart and realize this to begin with is somewhat surprising, but you're definitely not the only one).

But on your route, if you stay just west of I-25 (below 8000) or just outside the Bravo on the west and use FF, the chances are that as you pass abeam DEN, you will be cleared into the Bravo and on-course. It's generally recommended (on the flyway chart) that you stay west of the Bravo southbound. That corridor between I-25 and KBJC can get very busy.

BTW, the Denver flyway chart =is= available online. So you can lose your amazement.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=39.84456771867606,-104.81649407862169&chart=146&zoom=5&plan=A.K2.KDEN
 
The problem on your route is that KDEN's typical runways are N-S, so coming right over the airport (and interfering with departure and arrival paths) is not too likely (why folks don't look at the chart and realize this to begin with is somewhat surprising, but you're definitely not the only one).

But on your route, if you stay just west of I-25 (below 8000) or just outside the Bravo on the west and use FF, the chances are that as you pass abeam DEN, you will be cleared into the Bravo and on-course. It's generally recommended (on the flyway chart) that you stay west of the Bravo southbound. That corridor between I-25 and KBJC can get very busy.

BTW, the Denver flyway chart =is= available online. So you can lose your amazement.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=39.84456771867606,-104.81649407862169&chart=146&zoom=5&plan=A.K2.KDEN

Or if you need a mediocre copy in PDF format....
 

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If departing GXY, forget heading south and go southeast. FNL is sort of a toss-up. East and then south is probably best from a traffic avoidance point-of-view. If you can pick a time of day to depart then go for about 5 a.m. and you might get direct over DEN. There's a daily UPS flight to Billings that they'll keep you out of the way of if you try to go much later than 5.

Another way to get direct over DEN is to go IFR at zero-dark-thirty. Tell them, don't ask, that you're taking off to the south out of FNL and want direct to your destination. Otherwise you'll get a STAR and vectors to godonlyknowswhere.
 
For those of us who hate mornings, I can attest that from about 22:00 local on, they'll also do those direct routings, most nights. Certainly 23:00 on. :)
 
why folks don't look at the chart and realize this to begin with is somewhat surprising, but you're definitely not the only one

And so what did I do to deserve your scorn? You seem so sure that I didn't look at the chart to see where the DEN runways point -- and you are wrong about that. I tried to ask a clear and concise question, and offer a pleasant response to replies. I'm sorry that I upset you in doing so.

BTW, the Denver flyway chart =is= available online. So you can lose your amazement.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=39.84456771867606,-104.81649407862169&chart=146&zoom=5&plan=A.K2.KDEN
Thank you. Thanks also to Murphey for posting a scanned image.
 
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West of I-25, but East of BJC.

Okay, so this is for the southbound VFR route.

Two things I'm wondering about:

Relying on pilotage to avoid busting Bravo worries me. What if I follow the wrong freeway?

What's wrong with flying directly over the BJC VOR, slightly to the west? I can see that the VFR route is drawn slightly farther East, but wouldn't it be okay to move the track a little to the west? I'm thinking that if I tracked a 351 radial for BJC, I could avoid relying on pilotage and reliably stay out of Bravo. This track would be parallel to the one depicted on the TAC backside, but displaced about a mile to the west. Would this put me in conflict with some other traffic or rule? I'm just wondering.

Thanks again for your help.
 
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BTW - can I point out that airspace like DEN ****es me off. The point behind a VFR corridor is that it is supposed to be a cutout of the Class B airspace to facilitate us. For example, look at LAX (I don't know how to link to the FLY chart, but its available on SkyVector). That's what it is supposed to do.

The DEN chart just illustrates a way that you COULD do it, remaining clear of the Class B airspace anyway. Its the FAA's way of saying "Here's what you should do" without having to give up any of their precious airspace.

BLEGH.
 
Okay, so this is for the southbound VFR route.

Two things I'm wondering about:

Relying on pilotage to avoid busting Bravo worries me. What if I follow the wrong freeway?

What's wrong with flying directly over the BJC VOR, slightly to the west? I can see that the VFR route is not drawn slightly farther East, on the backside of the TAC, but wouldn't it be okay to move the track a little to the west? I'm thinking that if I tracked a 351 radial for BJC, I could avoid relying on pilotage and reliably stay out of Bravo. This track would be parallel to the one depicted on the TAC backside, but displaced about a mile to the west. Would this put me in conflict with some other traffic or rule? I'm just wondering.

Thanks for your help.

Rule, well, not really. Traffic, well, it can get busy around EIK, BDU, & BJC. Keep yer eyes open!

South from FNL is pretty easy. !-25 is tough to miss since it's the only N-S freeway in the area. Pattern altitude for EIK & BDU is 6,000 and BJC is 6,500 so stay above those and you'll do pretty good. Talk to Denver approach and they'll help you out with vectors if you ask (and some times even if you don't ask).
 
Off hand, I don't understand why you're unwilling to spend the additional 10-15 min to go east to GXY then SE, staying below the Class B or get clearance into the east part of the outer rings? Seems like this discussion has gotten way out of hand for a very small part of a lengthy flight.
 
I agree with Murphey's idea if you don't feel as if you want to try to navigate the flyways. In any case I would stay under the Bravo and not try to climb over it. The departures out of Denver basically go out on the cardinal directions (N, S, E, W) and the arrivals come in on the corners (NW, NE, SE, SW). They enter and exit the top of the Bravo at a pretty high rate of speed. Remember the 250 knot speed limit only goes up to 10,000' and the top of the Denver Bravo is 12,000'.
 
Murphey, I'm willing to spend time flying around Bravo to the east, as you suggest. It's clear that this is one of two main options that have been mentioned (aside from climbing incredibly fast to overfly Bravo or traveling in the wee hours of the morning). I just haven't had any questions about it because it looks easy. I've asked questions about the competing option of the VFR routes to the west because it looks like it requires more specialized knowledge as well as more attentiveness while flying.
 
Murphey, I'm willing to spend time flying around Bravo to the east, as you suggest. It's clear that this is one of two main options that have been mentioned (aside from climbing incredibly fast to overfly Bravo or traveling in the wee hours of the morning). I just haven't had any questions about it because it looks easy. I've asked questions about the competing option of the VFR routes to the west because it looks like it requires more specialized knowledge as well as more attentiveness while flying.

I suggest the east route because that NW area of the Denver TAC is very heavy with GA traffic - there are numerous small airports (yes, BJC is small) with lots of schools and student pilots. There's a very serious discussion going on (and has been for months) to set up some agreements/rules/whatever to make the training areas more clearly marked and get everyone to keep heads on swivel. The schools, the FAA, the airports and interested parties are all involved. Add in the jumpers and balloons at Longmont (LMO) and it can get pretty congested up there, 'specially on weekends.

As for clearance thru Class B - it really depends on the weather. If the winds favor landing 35, takeoff 26, then the odds are you'll be cleared into the east side of the two outer rings of Class B.

If not on an IFR flight plan, please use flight following until you're away from the Denver area. In addition to the Class B area, there's a huge and growing volume of military training traffic (USAF Academy near COS and IPT training out of PUB. This traffic is using the little airports east & west of PUB (Canon City and east as far as LaJunta LHX) daylight/weekdays only. I'm not sure Academy monitors 122.75 (last I heard) but the PUB traffic does.
 
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And so what did I do to deserve your scorn? You seem so sure that I didn't look at the chart to see where the DEN runways point -- and you are wrong about that. I tried to ask a clear and concise question, and offer a pleasant response to replies. I'm sorry that I upset you in doing so.

Thank you. Thanks also to Murphey for posting a scanned image.
You misunderstood my comment. No scorn intended. Sorry I made you upset in stating an observation I've made based on a good number of years and posts.
 
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I'll start by ordering a copy of the Terminal Area Chart so that I can inspect its backside.

It's just amazing that there's no depiction of those VFR corridors to be found online! It almost seems like I'm ordering a hidden-treasure map.

There is in Skyvector. Go to DEN and "DENVER FLY" will appear as a chart option.
 
Why does Skyvector have these and other digital chart outlets don't seem to?

(Giving Seattle Avionics a raised eyebrow here, since they seem to be feeding all the little fishes behind the scenes.)
 
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