Club Usage of a 6 Seat Airplane

thebruce

thebruce

Pre-takeoff checklist
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the Bruce
Question for any of you with experience or thoughts on the subject:

I have 3 young kids (8, 3, and 3) and wife that I'd like to take on a few trips that would be perfect piston single distance from my home airport (KCRQ with its 350+ days of flying weather with an instrument rating). I won't fly the whole family enough to warrant buying a 6-seat for my sole use, but if I could offset the cost even a slight bit by leasing the airplane back to a club, I'd do it.

Anyone in a club with a 6-seat single that can give me an idea of the usage of that airplane by club members? if all I' going to be able to do is make up the difference in the insurance premiums, it won't be worth it.

Thanks.
 
Chortle. You're setting yourself up for failure if you believe club ownership is going to defray your personal use. First off, the six seater rental premiums are going to be SUBSTANTIAL. Maintenance is likely to go up as well. There's no chance that a leaseback is going to work if you don't treat it as it was a business. These means doing whatever it takes to make it always available to the renters. That means you get in the back of the line with your personal use. Nobody is going to spend the time to get checked out in a plane that isn't available when they want to go. This also means no deferral of maintenance as well. If something airworthiness breaks it needs to be dealt with immediately and get the plane back on the line.
 
Finding a partner or two might be a better way to go. Or find someone on your field with a good reputation who already owns a 6 seater and see if they'd like a partner. This has worked very well for me.
 
What type of six seater were you looking at?

Seems like some of the folks with six seat twins are often interested in selling or patterning.

The large singles seem to go for more money and folks seem to be a little more protective, for lack of a better word, when it comes to them.

I'd wager you might have good luck talking to the locals with twins.
 
First Flight at brown has a PA32...I see it here at BFL a ton at my home FBO. The idiot who flies it also takes off in 35kt gusting winds under an SVFR and it had an electrical failure last time I saw it come in (had the local FD all worked up upon arrival)


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Tampico Trauma said:
The idiot who flies it also takes off in 35kt gusting winds under an SVFR and it had an electrical failure last time I saw it come in (had the local FD all worked up upon arrival)
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So you are saying beware of potential partners who have regular business in Bakersfield...
 
Nah, just my POA authorized .02... And why you don't want club idiots flying your plane.


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thebruce said:
So you are saying beware of potential partners who have regular business in Bakersfield...
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Or does the Bakersfield Triangle just take out nice PA32s?

There was a nasty crash there not long ago, involving unqualified IFR and disorientation in the clouds.
 
I went though your same dilemma. And, your situation is almost exactly the one I have. Couldn't find a partner, twins were cheap to buy but ungodly expensive to fly and maintain.


My solution?..........



Sold the Archer, bought a Lance. I've had it less than a week now. If you want to save money, but a Six and keep it stiff legged. Your only giving up ten knots. From the Archer to the Lance, my insurance is 2.5 times more. But gaaawwd damn it's a nice plane.
 
Tampico Trauma said:
First Flight at brown has a PA32...I see it here at BFL a ton at my home FBO. The idiot who flies it also takes off in 35kt gusting winds under an SVFR and it had an electrical failure last time I saw it come in (had the local FD all worked up upon arrival)


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Click to expand...

I have about 30 hours in that PA32. One day it WILL kill someone who tries to fly IFR in it, unless they overhaul the avionics. The ASI shows around 20mph too low (it stalls clean at around 40mph indicated), AI tends to show 20 degrees of bank occasionally, DG drifts 10+ degrees per hour and takes about 10 minutes to get up to speed, and the TC shows a slight left turn in straight and level flight.
I had a fun departure from KLAS with it (VFR), where after takeoff on left turn the AI showed a 20 degree bank to the right, TC showed standard rate turn to the left, and DG was turning right. First time I've ever needed the compass to fly a heading :)
But the 430 works!
 
Brian 23 one of our posters here had a Cherokee 6-300, he offered it to the flying club at BVS, as soon as they saw the fuel usage they ran screaming away.
 
Yeah, 4195w is a tourist attraction when it visits. Then again, at $145/hr wet how can you blame it.

It's true... -32s seem to come from together here, but from my humble upbringings, it appears to be inept yoke-holders causing issues.

The crotchety fella who usually flies 4195w in here appears to know everything about flying. His first pirep once airborne that day said otherwise.




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I even took a picture. This is straight and level flying at 2500/25". Note the ASI, TC, AI and VSI. DG gyro also had gone a bit off again there...
Oh and I forgot the best bit. The nose compartment door doesn't shut properly with the latches. We had it pop open at touchdown to HND :)

S&L by , on Flickr
 
Dr. O said:
And the EGT doesn't work either.
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Or the engine just quit. Given the state of the avionics would you expect the engine to be any better?

Most rentals have at least a few things wonky but it shouldn't be in critical systems like the AI and such. If I see that I think "if they don't take care of the stuff I can see it doesn't give me a great deal of confidence in the things I can't see."
 
The Wakeman 8-day clock is probably worth a bit.
 
mtuomi said:
The clock didn't work.
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Still likely valuable. I sent mine out to be cleaned. It sat in on my bookshelf for a long time. I never got around to pulling the cheap-ass (and more unreliable) Astrotech timer that I had replaced it with. At least when the Wakeman ran, it kept time. The Astrotech can be off by a factor of two. I use my watch (or the one built into the GPS) for real work. The Asstrotech is there to meet the FAA regs.
 
I mean, when you can rent a Cherokee Six for $145/hr wet, you can't expect much. The fact that it had a G430 was a huge surprise. And the engine seemed healthy and didn't use much oil (apart from the slight inconvenience that the mixture lever was incorrectly adjusted and shutting the engine down by just pulling the mixture wasn't possible...). For VFR use it's just fine if you need to haul 4 drunk friends around CA/NV. But for IFR, it will kill someone.
 
There's a reason many clubs and rental outfits don't have 6-seaters; the insurance is outrageous. When I was in a club, I was out point-person with the insurance broker. We had a Bonanza, and I asked about a PA32. His response was "you'll be lucky to get insurance on it, and if you do, the premiums will break the club." We didn't pursue it any further.
 
Data point: Assuming IFR with WAAS, I would use it for probably two weekend trips and a weeklong trip per year plus enough to meet whatever the insurance company or club policies required. Otherwise, I would use something else for cost reasons. The closer the rental rate to that of the other planes in the fleet the more often I would use it.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Or the engine just quit. Given the state of the avionics would you expect the engine to be any better?

Most rentals have at least a few things wonky but it shouldn't be in critical systems like the AI and such. If I see that I think "if they don't take care of the stuff I can see it doesn't give me a great deal of confidence in the things I can't see."
Click to expand...

Depends on the use of the owner.

I've seen plenty of VFR pilot who buy IFR birds thinking they are going to get their ticket, they don't end up doing it and the panels end up without current data bases and often some gyros which need a little TLC, but the engines, interiors, exteriors, lights, etc. are kept up very well.
 
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