Club rules - long

Aztec Driver

Aztec Driver

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
982
Location
Elizabethtown, PA
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Display name:
Bryon
I was reading with interest the story of Jesse's incident with his club. I have a similar story, although the club is less "defined".

The club is arranged in a rather unique manner:
4 "investing" club members
6 "non-investing club members"
The club is set up as a corporation, which owns the airplane. One club member is the sole person in the corporation.
The original understanding was that "non-investing members" would pay monthly dues, and per hour flight costs at a slightly higher rate than that of the "investing members".
"Investing members would pay no monthly dues (in echange for making no interest on their investment), and pay about $5 less per hour for flight costs. They would get their investment back within a certain time frame when they quit the club.

The "owner" was not making any money on this deal, he was just sharing the costs of flying with several of his friends.

Doing the math, I decided to "invest" in this club, as it allowed me to fly a nice Tiger for around $65-70 per flight hour wet, not including the interest I was losing, which, at the time, wasn't a lot anyway. And many of the club members did not fly much anyway, which allowed me to fly quite a bit.
Soon after joining the club, two members dropped out due to illness and age. Nobody ever joined the club during the next couple of years, and there were several major maintenance expenses. The owner kept complaining that we needed to get two more people so the fixed costs would be paid, or he would have to charge the "investors" some to make up the difference. He never did make any decision on those issues. He was also a terrible paperwork person, sometimes not billing everyone for their flight costs or their monthly dues for months at a time. Suddenly, he comes up with the solution, he would charge the investors $1500 for "their share" of the monthly dues dating back four years! The date went back to just before I joined the club, which is when he says he first started talking about making the investors pay something. He was also charging us a nearly full monthly rate ongoing.
After several months of emailing and talking back and forth, to no avail from my point of view, I terminated my membership and purchased my own plane. I still have several months before I can get my money back, because the negotiations went past my "contract" date. I am quite sure he will deduct this amount, as well as another year's worth of monthly dues from my initial investment, if he even pays it back at all.

Lessons learned:
1. Don't trust anyone, not even a "friend"
2. Have EVERYTHING spelled out in writing, including all of the "what-ifs."
3. There are no really great deals in aviation.
 
Aztec Driver said:
I was reading with interest the story of Jesse's incident with his club. I have a similar story, although the club is less "defined".

The club is arranged in a rather unique manner:
4 "investing" club members
6 "non-investing club members"
The club is set up as a corporation, which owns the airplane. One club member is the sole person in the corporation.
The original understanding was that "non-investing members" would pay monthly dues, and per hour flight costs at a slightly higher rate than that of the "investing members".
"Investing members would pay no monthly dues (in echange for making no interest on their investment), and pay about $5 less per hour for flight costs. They would get their investment back within a certain time frame when they quit the club.

The "owner" was not making any money on this deal, he was just sharing the costs of flying with several of his friends.

Doing the math, I decided to "invest" in this club, as it allowed me to fly a nice Tiger for around $65-70 per flight hour wet, not including the interest I was losing, which, at the time, wasn't a lot anyway. And many of the club members did not fly much anyway, which allowed me to fly quite a bit.
Soon after joining the club, two members dropped out due to illness and age. Nobody ever joined the club during the next couple of years, and there were several major maintenance expenses. The owner kept complaining that we needed to get two more people so the fixed costs would be paid, or he would have to charge the "investors" some to make up the difference. He never did make any decision on those issues. He was also a terrible paperwork person, sometimes not billing everyone for their flight costs or their monthly dues for months at a time. Suddenly, he comes up with the solution, he would charge the investors $1500 for "their share" of the monthly dues dating back four years! The date went back to just before I joined the club, which is when he says he first started talking about making the investors pay something. He was also charging us a nearly full monthly rate ongoing.
After several months of emailing and talking back and forth, to no avail from my point of view, I terminated my membership and purchased my own plane. I still have several months before I can get my money back, because the negotiations went past my "contract" date. I am quite sure he will deduct this amount, as well as another year's worth of monthly dues from my initial investment, if he even pays it back at all.

Lessons learned:
1. Don't trust anyone, not even a "friend"
2. Have EVERYTHING spelled out in writing, including all of the "what-ifs."
3. There are no really great deals in aviation.
Click to expand...

I remain firmly convinced that any "club" that goes beyond three "members" needs to have a corporation at it's core complete with good articles of incorporation and bylaws that clearly spell out everything of consequence. And preferably they are drafted with the aid of a competent aviation savvy attorney. The "club" (i.e. corporation) should be owned by all members with an elected board of directors that actually run the club and make policy if there are more than half a dozen members.
 
lancefisher said:
I remain firmly convinced that any "club" that goes beyond three "members" needs to have a corporation at it's core complete with good articles of incorporation and bylaws that clearly spell out everything of consequence. .
Click to expand...

They should also operate by the bylaws. If they want to deviate from the bylaws they should have to change them by vote of the club.....
 
jesse said:
They should also operate by the bylaws. If they want to deviate from the bylaws they should have to change them by vote of the club.....
Click to expand...

Hey Jesse, I missed the story about the hearing (and I agree with keeping the case off of PoA). Would you PM me with the story (just the "hearing" stuff)?
 
Well, finally. After two years and many threats and a small amount of legal action, I finally have my money back from the club. He found another "investor" aka "sucker" who floated him a loan to take care of two of us, as well as the first lien holder on the airplane. I am glad to be done with that. Now to fix the airplane and install the new avionics.
 
Well, now a twist to the "never ending story."

Some of you may remember the narration I gave on the performance of the CFI owner of the club I was once a member of. I became friends with the student he was "instructing" at the time of my departure from the club. To sum up the story, I had an opportunity to fly and talk with the student shortly after I quit. He told me that he was about to take his checkride, so I gave him an impromtu "oral" and found he had very large gaps in his knowledge base, enough so that there was no way he could pass the test. I queried him and found out that the "instructor" had never taught him any of these items. Upon further examination, I found out that he was never "signed off" to solo, he was never "signed off" to do solo cross countries, and he was "allowed" to fly solo cross country to the airport near his summer house for weekends without supervision of any type. Another friend and I recommended he seek an evaluation from another CFI. Before he had that ooportunity, he did another lesson with "CFI 1", and the "instructor" told him to fly and land near a thunderstorm. This, understandably, shook up the student terribly, so he quit. He paid all of his lessons each time he went, so there was no ongoing balance outstanding.

After a short time, the student restarted lessons with another CFI, who noticed he still needed a fair amount of training, as well as all of the missing endorsements. I do not know if he went to the FSDO, but he said he was going to.

Fast forward 1 1/2 years. The student now has his certificate, is happily flying along, and owns his own plane.

The previous "CFI" decided now to sue the student for $3800.
1. $500 for a "membership" initiation fee. He never did become a member of the club.
2. Monies for the "difference" in hourly price of the airplane between a member price and a non member price. Curious, since there really was no price made up for non members before.
3. Extra money for higher instructional fees.

There were never any invoices sent, no attempts to collect said money, not even any phone calls. Just a certified letter from the disrict magistrate informing him of the suit.

This man is a festering sore that never heals. His instructional ability and his arrogant attitude will kill someone one of these days. I only hope that with all of the information the student is accumulating, and all of the statements from people, that he is able to defeat, and, hopefully, even come out of this ahead.

This CFI really needs to be removed from ever instructing again.
 
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Bryon,

This "instructor" is a substantial danger to the rest of us who truly care about our student's performance and progression as well as keeping them and us legal during training.

The former student should consider getting an aviation attorney for his defense. With the documentation of all these actions such as the solo XC with no endorsement, etc, the instructor stands a good chance of incriminating himself into a suspension or revocation.

I would think a good attorney could persuade the instructor to drop the suit, pay legal fees and save his ticket. And, perhaps even do something substantial to improve themselves, like take some training from a real instructor. That's needed regardless of what becomes of the matter after the FSDO gets through with him.

I'll be interested in the outcome of this one.
 
KennyFlys said:
I would think a good attorney could persuade the instructor to drop the suit, pay legal fees and save his ticket. And, perhaps even do something substantial to improve themselves, like take some training from a real instructor.
Click to expand...

I think you're dreaming Ken. IME anyone who'd pull the stunts this guy has isn't likely to be "persuaded" by any attorney to drop the suit, let alone attempt to "improve" himself.
 
lancefisher said:
I think you're dreaming Ken. IME anyone who'd pull the stunts this guy has isn't likely to be "persuaded" by any attorney to drop the suit, let alone attempt to "improve" himself.
Click to expand...

Seems to me the burden is going to be on the plaintiff. With no documentation of past due receivables we can hope the judge smacks this guy upside the head and the defendant can get a certified copy of the pleadings to send to the FSDO...


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
Seems to me the burden is going to be on the plaintiff. With no documentation of past due receivables we can hope the judge smacks this guy upside the head and the defendant can get a certified copy of the pleadings to send to the FSDO...


Trapper John
Click to expand...
I would hope so, but, unfortunately, I have seen first hand what the "juducial" system around here is capable of. I have seen magistrates around here who will not bother to look into law case, or worry about who is proving what. If both sides lack good documentation, then they end up splitting down the middle and "sending the participants to their rooms." They don't seem to care where the real burden of proof is supposed to be. They just want the case out of their court.

I have also seen first hand what this bozo is capable of. It makes me sick to think I actually thought of him as a friend, and someone who could be trusted and mentored under. My own instructors cautioned me that he will one day cause the death of someone. He is a loose cannon and needs to be removed not only from instructing, but from flying as well.

Another story, (and I have a few more as well), while flying from Salisbury to Easton, he is PIC with my current partner in the right seat, me in the back, he decides he wants to practice "under the hood." He proceeds to put the sunshield on his side of the windscreen and goes on the gauges. Right seater could not see around the sunscreen, and I could not see front. We were not comfortable at all. After that, his impatience shows up when we enter the pattern at Easton. There were two other planes in the pattern already, one on base, one entering downwind. He comes into the pattern at about a 45 degree angle towards the downwind guy from across the runway. This Cessna had a wider than normal pattern, which irritated the PIC, so he enters the patern slightly behind and INSIDE the other aircraft. Our aircraft is faster than a Cessna, so we are slightly overtaking him. The Cessna turns base in front of us, which was his right. PIC flys on and, again, turns inside of the Cessna. We are now getting a lot closer on final. He slows down to stall warning horn and follows the Cessna in. For the last 1/4 mile the stall horn is going off, and if the Cessna hadn't done a touch and go, we would have landed right behind him. I really thought I was done at that point. That was the last flight I made with him. He, of course, says that if you can't fly with the stall warning horn the whole time, you are not a proficient pilot. While there is some truth to that, I certainly didn't see the necessity in it.
 
Another interesting twist to this new wrinkle. It occurs to me that our hapless CFI was giving primary instruction in the club airplane. Since the club "member" (student) was not an owner of any type, that makes the aircraft require 100 hour inspections as well as annuals. The aircraft has never had 100 hour inspections for the entire club life. This is going to get real ugly. Two FAA safety reps have emailed the student back. Seems they are real interested in talking about this.
 
Student dosen't need an aviation attorney just a good local litigator will do. This is a contract lawsuit not an aviation one. Best of luck to him.
 
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