Close. Real Close.

We need to ban little airplanes in places people paraglide.
 
Somewhat of an optical illusion how close that really was but wow... that was not good!
 
Holy cow!.... Wonder who would be at fault with that one? Would be impossible to see the cable.
 
Remind me to keep an eye out for
ParagliderTowingArea.jpg
on the charts. Yikes, that was crazy close. After seeing that video of the Cirrus catching a towplane's tow cable and having to pull the chute I would never want to run into a cable ever.
 
tehmightypirate said:
Remind me to keep an eye out for
ParagliderTowingArea.jpg
on the charts. Yikes, that was crazy close. After seeing that video of the Cirrus catching a towplane's tow cable and having to pull the chute I would never want to run into a cable ever.
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I've seen the video you speak of, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Cirrus; No flaming wreck. (only half joking)

Here's the one I'm thinking of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG4nIeyaoek
 
Why would someone fly UNDER someone who's under canopy, regardless of tethered or not?? If they're not tethered, they're often descending! That's crazy.
 
F01LA said:
I've seen the video you speak of, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Cirrus; No flaming wreck. (only half joking)

Here's the one I'm thinking of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG4nIeyaoek
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Yep, that's the one. I must have been thinking of the Cirrus in the 2nd part of the story. I like that video, for once they didn't ask if he filed a flight plan. :p
 
I know some older high time pilots hate talking to someone while they are flying vfr but I honestly don't think i have ever flown without flight following and will not unless there is some reason i can't. It gives me a sense of security knowing that i will have traffic calls and don't have to worry about airpspace restrictions as much. Im extrordinarly conservative and always err on the side of caution and in some eyes maybe too much but if im not completely comfortable im not flying. Flying is supposed to be fun and being uncomfortable is not fun. If I know ATC is watching me it goes a long way in being more comfortable in my book.

Now in this scenario you would think ATC would be notified that it was active but if this were not a permanant winch system then maybe not?? I don't know anything about paragliding so that is really more of a question. SCARY AS HELL though!!
 
I'm wondering how high is this glider? 1000 ft? Another reason I feel safer up high.
 
1. Not going to have FF this close to the ground
2. This is Sweden, a user fee country. Have an extra 300 Euro burning a hole in your pocket, by all means request ATC services
 
If that paraglider(or a hangglider, glider, or hot air balloon) is floating around in front of you ATC won't save you and they are not required to provide separation even for stuff they know about. Put down the radio and look out the window, take responsibility for yourself and you will be safer. It would be so funny to do a study equipping GA pilots with retina scanners and measuring the truth of how little they look outside.
Ruthless53 said:
I know some older high time pilots hate talking to someone while they are flying vfr but I honestly don't think i have ever flown without flight following and will not unless there is some reason i can't. It gives me a sense of security knowing that i will have traffic calls and don't have to worry about airpspace restrictions as much. Im extrordinarly conservative and always err on the side of caution and in some eyes maybe too much but if im not completely comfortable im not flying. Flying is supposed to be fun and being uncomfortable is not fun. If I know ATC is watching me it goes a long way in being more comfortable in my book.

Now in this scenario you would think ATC would be notified that it was active but if this were not a permanant winch system then maybe not?? I don't know anything about paragliding so that is really more of a question. SCARY AS HELL though!!
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ClimbnSink said:
If that paraglider(or a hangglider, glider, or hot air balloon) is floating around in front of you ATC won't save you and they are not required to provide separation even for stuff they know about. Put down the radio and look out the window, take responsibility for yourself and you will be safer. It would be so funny to do a study equipping GA pilots with retina scanners and measuring the truth of how little they look outside.
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Well for one its not 1950 and the fact I don't have to "hold" a radio and put it down but rather click a button on my yoke makes your comment seem rather idiotic. Talking to ATC only makes a flight safer and in fact they ARE REQUIRED to notify you of ANY traffic that is within a certain distance from you (3 miles I think) no matter which way they are headed. That includes VFR traffic that they are not talking to but shows up on their radar. There is nothing about talking on a radio that requires you to keep your head inside except the 5 seconds it takes to switch frequencies!!

Im more curious about the scenario if this were a situation in the US. There would obviously be no way to aviod this if you were flying the deck and not able to talk to anybody. I would think most people that paraglide ect would report such activity (like jumpers do) so that atc can give you a report of activity in that area. Obviously some might not report the activity and in that case i guess its in gods hands if you don't see them.

My question is are paragliders (winch, power, or natural) and skydivers legally required in the US to let someone know this activity is going on? The only thing we ever see around us are jumpers. No real places to paraglide out here unless you have a power sail.
 
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Ruthless53 said:
in fact they ARE REQUIRED to notify you of ANY traffic that is within a certain distance from you (3 miles I think) no matter which way they are headed. That includes VFR traffic that they are not talking to but shows up on their radar.
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That is contrary to what I have read in the FAA publications - do you have a reference?

My question is are paragliders (winch, power, or natural) and skydivers legally required in the US to let someone know this activity is going on? The only thing we ever see around us are jumpers. No real places to paraglide out here unless you have a power sail.
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Part 103 operators are not required to notify ATC of their activities - no different than the rest of us.

You might have noticed that the paraglider in the video was operating off flat farmland. Probably not much different than where you are at.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
That is contrary to what I have read in the FAA publications - do you have a reference?



Part 103 operators are not required to notify ATC of their activities - no different than the rest of us.

You might have noticed that the paraglider in the video was operating off flat farmland. Probably not much different than where you are at.
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I was told by a good friend of mine who is ATC that there is a standard rule that they have to notify you of traffic starting at (3miles but that could be slightyly off) even if they are no factor at all. This is just the rules as the FAA states it. The 3 mile thing might be just the rule of thumb they use so they cover as much of their ass as possible. But if you are talking to a controller they are required to alert you of traffic unless you tell them you do not want traffic advisories.

2-1-21. TRAFFIC ADVISORIES ​
Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your frequency when, in your judgment, their proximity may diminish to less than the applicable separation minima. Where no separation minima applies, such as for VFR aircraft outside of Class B/Class C airspace, or a TRSA, issue traffic advisories to those aircraft on your frequency when in your judgment their proximity warrants it. Provide this service as follows:
a. To radar identified aircraft:
1. Azimuth from aircraft in terms of the 12-hour clock, or
2. When rapidly maneuvering aircraft prevent accurate issuance of traffic as in 1 above, specify the direction from an aircraft's position in terms of the eight cardinal compass points (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, and NW). This method must be terminated at the pilot's request.
3. Distance from aircraft in miles.
4. Direction in which traffic is proceeding and/or relative movement of traffic.
NOTE-
Relative movement includes closing, converging, parallel same direction, opposite direction, diverging, overtaking, crossing left to right, crossing right to left.
5. If known, type of aircraft and altitude.
 
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Note 'in your judgement' used twice. They don't have to tell you anything, they might not see everything radar filters out slow targets such as I dunno paragliders maybe. Besides relying on ATC for traffic separation in VMC is worshiping a false god. And that'll get you smote from the skies.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Note 'in your judgement' used twice. They don't have to tell you anything, they might not see everything radar filters out slow targets such as I dunno paragliders maybe. Besides relying on ATC for traffic separation in VMC is worshiping a false god. And that'll get you smote from the skies.
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Yes and if you read it says when in your judgement the aircraft are on a course that will bring them within the minimum seperation that is required!

Here is the FAA standards on minimum seperation:

Radar separation[edit]

Radar separation is applied by a controller observing that the radar returns from the two aircraft are a certain minimum horizontal distance away from each other, as observed on a suitably calibrated radar system. The actual distance used varies: 5 nmi (9 km) is common in en route airspace, 3 NM is common in terminal airspace at lower levels. On occasion 10 NM may be used, especially at long range or in regions of less reliable radar cover.
By US FAA Rules,[2] when an aircraft is:
1. Less than 40 miles from the [radar] antenna, horizontal separation is 3 miles from obstructions or other aircraft.2. 40 miles or more from the [radar] antenna, horizontal separation is 5 miles from obstructions or other aircraft.3. Terminal Area For single sensor ASR-9 with Mode S, when less than 60 miles from the antenna, horizontal separation is 3 miles from other aircraft.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Note 'in your judgement' used twice. They don't have to tell you anything, they might not see everything radar filters out slow targets such as I dunno paragliders maybe. Besides relying on ATC for traffic separation in VMC is worshiping a false god. And that'll get you smote from the skies.
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Of course if they can't see a freaking plane on their radar they can't help but again this is not 1950 and most radars will pick up anything above 2500 ft or so no matter the speed. Unless you know of some random stealth planes flying around that I don't. No where did i say i rely on them for it as I don't rely on anybody but myself and my training for anything in a plane but to have them help when they can see via radar a hell of alot more than my eyes can see then why would you not have them helping you out.
 
Dunno I thought the filters applied throughout the altitude range. To eliminate mountains and flocks of birds. Dunno if they can see paragliders. I do know that they can't always see sailplanes with low groundspeed flying at altitude. You have way too much faith in technology and other people keeping you safe. Granted the last time I was in a radar center was about 20 years ago but the stuff looked 1950's vintage.:lol:
 
Ruthless53 said:
Of course if they can't see a freaking plane on their radar they can't help but again this is not 1950 and most radars will pick up anything above 2500 ft or so no matter the speed. Unless you know of some random stealth planes flying around that I don't. No where did i say i rely on them for it as I don't rely on anybody but myself and my training for anything in a plane but to have them help when they can see via radar a hell of alot more than my eyes can see then why would you not have them helping you out.
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I know many stealthy planes (so far as FAA radar goes)

Just about everything with out a transponder (or with it turned off)

It shows primary targets, but they are rather small and easy to miss
 
I don't know why you guys are focusing on Ruthless53's comment about radar so much. He already said that he uses it to INCREASE safety, not as the sole solution for traffic avoidance. Whether ATC is required to notify your or not, you cannot debate that fact that having some chance that ATC will alert you to traffic you cannot see is an increase in safety factor.

As far as the video goes; that's scary stuff. I agree that the distance is likely an optical illusion, but it's still way too close!
 
Understand the faulty 'safety logic' Ohh winch launching is scary, good thing I use ATC. Only looking out the window will keep you from hitting a wire. Watch the video I posted above those guys pulled over and winched on the side of the road, I'd guess ATC wasn't notified and even if they can see the paraglider on radar they aren't going to see it soon enough(the whole launch doesn't take that long) to move you around it. No way ATC can alert you the thing that scares you in the OP's video.
Heftiger said:
I don't know why you guys are focusing on Ruthless53's comment about radar so much. He already said that he uses it to INCREASE safety, not as the sole solution for traffic avoidance. Whether ATC is required to notify your or not, you cannot debate that fact that having some chance that ATC will alert you to traffic you cannot see is an increase in safety factor.

As far as the video goes; that's scary stuff. I agree that the distance is likely an optical illusion, but it's still way too close!
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ClimbnSink said:
Understand the faulty 'safety logic' Ohh winch launching is scary, good thing I use ATC. Only looking out the window will keep you from hitting a wire. Watch the video I posted above those guys pulled over and winched on the side of the road, I'd guess ATC wasn't notified and even if they can see the paraglider on radar they aren't going to see it soon enough(the whole launch doesn't take that long) to move you around it. No way ATC can alert you the thing that scares you in the OP's video.
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Again my point on bringing up ATC was never that they will see a paraglide operating (likely under 1500 and below coverage) but was to the fact that the best odds of ever knowing they were even there (including visually seeing them) is the chance that they did alert ATC of what they were doing and they could warn you of the activity in the area. It would be damn hard to ever see him and impossible to see the wire. I guess Greg can't relate to this since he seems to hate ATC but how many others have been given a call that a plane is a couple miles (3-5) converging 1k ft above or below and never found the plane visually even when you know they are there. I would say even with traffic on the new garmin and ATC you might get a visual 25% of the time when you try hard to find them. Odds are without atc or Onboard traffic you get pretty close to alot of planes you never even see. Odds of seeing seeing a glider wouldn't be any better unless you know to avoid that area all together.
 
Heftiger said:
I agree that the distance is likely an optical illusion, but it's still way too close!
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I don't think there's any illusion at all. There's no parallax because you're looking right down the cable. Stop the video at 20 seconds and see how close that wingtip is to the wire.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
I don't think there's any illusion at all. There's no parallax because you're looking right down the cable. Stop the video at 20 seconds and see how close that wingtip is to the wire.

Dan
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Exactly. It's not the vertical separation that was the issue. It was the mere few inches of horizontal separation to the tow cable that is the issue.
 
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