Clock for IFR

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by 50kttailwind, Oct 24, 2021.

  1. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi everyone,

    New to us 182H has everything needed to satisfy IFR certification except a clock. Garmin GNS530 and the old KT76A transponder (with no clock obviously).

    Everything I read says the timer in the 530 isn’t good enough. We also don’t have a place to install a clock on the panel. Every spot has an instrument.

    My next step is calling some local avionics shops for ideas. Can anyone on here recommend some solutions? Hoping to somehow solve this cheaply before leaping in to something like a new garmin transponder that will solve this for a lot of money.
     
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  2. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    There is a letter of interpretation somewhere that allows the clock on a GPS or transponder to meet the requirements. I printed it off and stuck it in my glove box for my IR checkride. I can’t seem to find it online at the moment.
     
  3. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    The timer may not be, but I thought the 530 could display a clock format that met the requirements of Part 91? There is guidance that states that this type clock display meets the requirements.
     
  4. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    Oh wow that would be amazing! If you find it, please let me know! If you can't, is it possible to take a picture of it and post it? That would save us big time.
     
  5. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    I haven't tried to display the clock. Is there a way to display it all the time on the 530?
     
  6. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Gotta be on all the time, and gotta have seconds.
     
  7. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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  8. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    Thank you! Now to see if there’s any way to make the 530 do this. I really hope it can.
     
  9. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    The panel is so full on a 182 there no room for a clock? That is hard to visualize.
     
  10. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    Looks like we have the clock requirement on the satellite page.
     

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  11. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    No obvious room anyway. Installing a clock would definitely need a new cutout somewhere. Desperately trying to avoid that.
     
  12. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Are you going to fly the entire check ride with that page up? ;)
     
  13. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    Haha! Unable to shoot any approaches sorry. Want to do any more timed maneuvers? :D
     
  14. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    Did they remove the OEM clock at one time? It was only VFR prior to you buying it? Seems odd you have no installed clock in a 182.
     
  15. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Just for points of data, I asked 3 DPE's and got 2 "the gps is enough" and one "it's not enough". I found a separate clock because I was having trouble scheduling a DPE so I figured I'd play it safe and not worry if the one that worked out cared.
     
  16. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    Yeah they overhauled the entire panel. Engine monitor installed. The clock disappeared somewhere along the journey.
     
  17. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I think a radio shack timer velcroed to the panel could work….?
     
  18. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    A velcro installation is pretty universally not considered "permanent".
     
  19. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    The legal interpretation posted above seems to clarify it. Apparently any permanent device like a radio or transponder with clock functionality satisfies it. As long as you can get hours:minutes:seconds.
     
  20. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Just a word of warning. It doesn't matter how *you* interpret that letter, it matters how the DPE interprets it.
     
  21. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    If the aircraft was IFR before the panel "upgrade" can't see them going backwards. Perhaps review the documentation to see if they mention the clock function change. Does the engine monitor have a clock that can be displayed? Might help if you post a picture of your panel? But something sure seems amiss here. In all the panels I reconfigured never left out the basic instruments or reduced the capabilities.
     
  22. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    Yep. I’ll make sure my instructor asks ahead of time. The examiners in the area all have good relationships with instructors.
     
  23. 50kttailwind

    50kttailwind Filing Flight Plan

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    I can try to grab pics. Last owners were definitely filing and flying IMC. So they thought they were legal.
     
  24. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    Why not ask them direct how they met the clock requirement?
     
  25. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    I’d contact the dpe directly. It’s always good to create a relationship with them before the checkride.
     
  26. Albany Tom

    Albany Tom Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Just as a random data point, I don't think I've ever flown in a rental airplane with a working clock.
     
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  27. Piper18O

    Piper18O Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    If you swapped the 530 for an Avidyne IFD 540 you would be set. There is a programable datablock function that allows you to put a clock with either local or utc time in one of the datablock's so it is always visible. I do realize that might cost more than cutting a new hole for a clock and installing it. It is a pretty cool function of the IFD though.
     
  28. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson En-Route

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    Perhaps there is a difference between the legal requirement and the use of a clock during the checkride.

    In my case, I have several instruments that can/do display the required clock but none are used in flight. I use the timer on my Foreflighted iPad.

    Just sayin’


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  29. Randomskylane

    Randomskylane Pre-Flight

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    The uavionix av20 does 10 or 12 things including clock for $800 and only needs ~2” in the panel (fits in Cessna clock hole you’d have if your panel wasn’t re-done) fwiw
     
  30. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg En-Route

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    Ditto this. Let's see some photos of this LCD tanning salon. :D
     
  31. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    What is there to interpret? The letter explicitly says a GPS with a permanent clock display is enough.
     
  32. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    The clock on the 430 is permanent, but not always visible. Some dpes say not being permanently visible means it’s not permanent, some say it’s mounted permanently, and it has seconds, so it’s good enough. I asked three dpe’s and got two different interpretations.
     
  33. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    The ones who say it has to always be visible seem to be correct per the FAA's letter. The display must be permanent, not just the instrument:
     
  34. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route PoA Supporter

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    So what if you have a permanent clock installed to meet the requirement that is working like the Cessna 8 day wind up clock. But you chose to use the kitchen timer you have Velcro’ed becaUe it’s easier, you can set timer quickly snd it makes noise. There is nothing wrong which which clock you use right?
     
  35. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

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    This really is an outdated requirement that should go away. Almost everyone has something to tell the time with them in the plane.
     
  36. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Like “one thousand one, one thousand two…. One thousand 60” for example?
     
  37. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    FYI: just like mag compasses it's not a point of being outdated as how do you enforce it. For example, there are still a number of aircraft that fly in the NAS without electrical systems. Even the ADSB rules had to make an exception for this as well. So when it comes to deciding what is actually "outdated" it would need to cover the "entire" aircraft fleet that uses the NAS. It is what it is.
     
  38. WDD

    WDD En-Route

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    If you want to be legal during and after the checkride, you'll need a permanent clock. It's the C in GRABCARD
     
  39. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    That doesn’t mean you are required to USE it.
     
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  40. crash7

    crash7 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Unless the checkride is done under IFR, then, no. The clock isn’t required. The DPE will probably make it a point of conversation.
    If that same plane (without a permanent clock) was used for the long dual IFR training flight, then the DPE may find that very interesting.


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