Cleared to cross a runway question

[jspilot]

Yesterday I made an amazing XC flight on a really great day. It was one of those flights that makes having a PPL totally great. Anyway, I was returning to the local airport( KISP) and discovered that the wind had kicked up a bit but was relatively straight down the runway. KISP was using runway 33L yesterday and I made a really nice landing and because of the nice headwind, had the plane slowed down well before the first turnoff. The tower came on and told me to continue to the end of the runway and exit at the taxiway at the end- no big deal because the ramp is basically at the end of 33L anyway although it meant I would be taxing for about 4,000 ft of the 5,000 foot runway( should have asked for a long landing- oh well.) Runway 33L at KISP intersects with runway 24 about half way down 33L.

So now that you have the background here is the question, since I was given taxi instructions while on the runway, was it required to get permission to cross runway 24? When given the taxi instructions the tower did not specifically say "cleared to cross runway 24" so I asked and he said I was "cleared to cross" so it was a total non issue, however I thought about this after the flight and thought the tower might have left out the " cleared to cross" instruction because it was not required since I was still on the active runway. Clearly if I was still in the act of landing, like making a long landing or just a landing with a ton of float, I would not need to ask permission to cross the runway. However I guess in my case this time I was not considered to be in the act of landing since I clearly was at taxi speed.

 

[PBristolJr]

I'm not quoting a reg on this, just going from previous experience.
Once you are cleared to land as number 1 you own that runway and they "protect it" until you are off of it, they wouldn't (shouldn't ) have landing traffic on 24 at the same time that you would be rolling down 33, thus you wouldn't need to be cleared to cross, as you already have the option of using all available runway to stop.

 

[Brad Z]

Unless you accepted a "land and hold short runway 10" clearance you need no additional clearance to cross the intersecting runway from the runway you landed on. Had you cleared the runway onto taxiway 'Bravo' you would would have required a crossing clearance.

 

[LDJones]

Unless you accepted a "land and hold short runway 10" clearance you need no additional clearance to cross the intersecting runway from the runway you landed on. Had you cleared the runway onto taxiway 'Bravo' you would would have required a crossing clearance.

 

[jspilot]

Thanks guys! I thought the "cleared to cross" was probably not required since I was still on the active runway but with all the runway incursion talk u definately wanted to make sure. Plus, KISP often uses runway 24 for the comercial jet traffic while us small and slow planes are using 33L

This is what is great about this site, ask a question and it gets answered quickly and by knowledgable people.

 

[Jeanie]

And, when in doubt always confirm with ATC... It may sound "stupid" but I'd rather be stupid and cya than not....

 

[MDeitch1976]

Controllers can make mistakes too.

 

[BillTIZ]

When does a landing roll turn into a taxi operation?
When you turn off the active?
When you come to a full stop on the runway?
Landing to a long rollout to the end of the runway is still landing?

It's a fine distinction but very clear, I think. Cleared to land with no LAHS instructions, I own the runway until I leave. Directed to use the whole length and clear at the end? No crossing clearance needed.

Sometimes ATC may direct you to the end so you keep speed up and moving so he can land one behind you on the same runway, minimum distance requirements permitting.

 

[Sac Arrow]

This sort of begs a question though. Prior to a couple years ago, if you were given a taxi clearance, you were automatically cleared to cross all non-active runways. Since, controllers have been required to issue crossing instructions for all intersecting runways, active or not. Have the FAR's been updated to require pilots to receive crossing clearance on inactive runways? E.g. if the controller forgets to issue a crossing clearance on an inactive runway, where does the pilot stand?

(I would still ask)

Sorry if this is a stupid question and I should know better. For what it's worth, I still have yet to receive a "line up and wait" instruction.

 

[MAKG1]

Land at Palo Alto on a nice Saturday and you'll get one.

The FARs (specifically 14 CFR 91.129(i)) says that a clearance to an active runway is automatically a clearance to cross intervening inactive runways. So, I guess the answer is no. AIM 4-3-18 (5) says otherwise.

I'm certainly not a lawyer, but I'd expect the FARs win if you aren't given a clearance to cross an inactive runway and you cross anyway. I wouldn't depend upon that, though. When in doubt, ask.

 

[roncachamp]

This sort of begs a question though. Prior to a couple years ago, if you were given a taxi clearance, you were automatically cleared to cross all non-active runways. Since, controllers have been required to issue crossing instructions for all intersecting runways, active or not. Have the FAR's been updated to require pilots to receive crossing clearance on inactive runways? E.g. if the controller forgets to issue a crossing clearance on an inactive runway, where does the pilot stand?

(I would still ask)

Sorry if this is a stupid question and I should know better. For what it's worth, I still have yet to receive a "line up and wait" instruction.

Not a couple of years ago, just last May, and not just non-active runways. A clearance to "taxi to" a runway was specific clearance to cross all runways except the designated runway. Whether or not that has actually changed is open to debate. The regulation now reads:

"Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC."

So if the controller screws up and uses the old phraseology will a pilot be held in violation if he crosses a runway other than the one designated? Are pilots expected to know what an "appropriate clearance" is?

 

[roncachamp]

Land at Palo Alto on a nice Saturday and you'll get one.

The FARs (specifically 14 CFR 91.129(i)) says that a clearance to an active runway is automatically a clearance to cross intervening inactive runways. So, I guess the answer is no. AIM 4-3-18 (5) says otherwise.

I'm certainly not a lawyer, but I'd expect the FARs win if you aren't given a clearance to cross an inactive runway and you cross anyway. I wouldn't depend upon that, though. When in doubt, ask.

Not anymore, FAR 91.129(i) now states:

(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC.

 

[rbridges]

my local airport says this 9 out of 10 times when landing, "proceed to the end of the runway, turn left on Bravo and proceed to the ramp." there is a crossing runway, and I usually just keep going since I've been cleared to the end of my runway.

 

[Velocity173]

Not a couple of years ago, just last May, and not just non-active runways. A clearance to "taxi to" a runway was specific clearance to cross all runways except the designated runway. Whether or not that has actually changed is open to debate. The regulation now reads:

"Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC."

So if the controller screws up and uses the old phraseology will a pilot be held in violation if he crosses a runway other than the one designated? Are pilots expected to know what an "appropriate clearance" is?

I thought " taxi to" was removed from your phraseology? Now it's "rwy ** taxi via" and you have to issue clearance crossing or hold short any intervening runways. It's basically a progressive clearance now.

The OP is about a landing clearance though. Are you saying the pilot has to hear " cleared to land 33L cross 24"? The pilot wasn't told to hold short, he should have the whole length if necessary. Once he clears the runway he should get a "taxi to" clearance to the ramp.

 

[roncachamp]

I thought " taxi to" was removed from your phraseology? Now it's "rwy ** taxi via" and you have to issue clearance crossing or hold short any intervening runways. It's basically a progressive clearance now.

It was removed from controller phraseology and also from FAR 91.129, but the amended regulation does not require a crossing instruction for each runway. So if the controller screws up and uses the old phraseology the pilot can still cross all intervening runways.

The OP is about a landing clearance though.

I realize that, but there were references to the old language of FAR 91.129(i) when taxiing to the runway.

Are you saying the pilot has to hear " cleared to land 33L cross 24"?

Nope.

 

[Velocity173]

It was removed from controller phraseology and also from FAR 91.129, but the amended regulation does not require a crossing instruction for each runway. So if the controller screws up and uses the old phraseology the pilot can still cross all intervening runways.



I realize that, but there were references to the old language of FAR 91.129(i) when taxiing to the runway.



Nope.

OK that's what I thought. I guess the thread evolved into a rwy taxi clearance when the poster was talking about something different. I didn't want the poster to get confused with his situation and taxi instructions once clear of the runway.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Okay, that clears that up. I guess I should have started a new thread.

 

[jspilot]

I thought " taxi to" was removed from your phraseology? Now it's "rwy ** taxi via" and you have to issue clearance crossing or hold short any intervening runways. It's basically a progressive clearance now.

The OP is about a landing clearance though. Are you saying the pilot has to hear " cleared to land 33L cross 24"? The pilot wasn't told to hold short, he should have the whole length if necessary. Once he clears the runway he should get a "taxi to" clearance to the ramp.

See this is why I asked the question in the first place. I received taxi instructions while still on the active runway. Those instructions included "continue to the end of the runway and exit via whiskey, continue to parking with me." The fact that I received taxi instructions while still on the runway seems to indicate that, at least in the mind of the controller I was taxing and no longer landing. If that's the case than standard operating procedure is to get permission to cross the runway you are going to taxi across before crossing the runway.

 

[roncachamp]

See this is why I asked the question in the first place. I received taxi instructions while still on the active runway. Those instructions included "continue to the end of the runway and exit via whiskey, continue to parking with me." The fact that I received taxi instructions while still on the runway seems to indicate that, at least in the mind of the controller I was taxing and no longer landing. If that's the case than standard operating procedure is to get permission to cross the runway you are going to taxi across before crossing the runway.

But when, in the mind of the controller, did your landing rollout end and your taxi begin?

 

[jspilot]

But when, in the mind of the controller, did your landing rollout end and your taxi begin?

Exactly my point and I was wondering if there is a distinction in the regs somewhere that one of the members knew.

My assumption was since he gave me taxi clearance he considered my Landing to be done and my taxi had begun.

 

[roncachamp]

Exactly my point and I was wondering if there is a distinction in the regs somewhere that one of the members knew.

My assumption was since he gave me taxi clearance he considered my Landing to be done and my taxi had begun.

I don't see what you're concerned about. You wrote, "since I was given taxi instructions while on the runway, was it required to get permission to cross runway 24?" But you did get permission to cross runway 24, twice. The first was when you were cleared to land without a restriction to hold short of runway 24, the second was when you were told to "continue to the end of the runway" before you had crossed runway 24. FAR 91.129 does not require a pilot to obtain specific authorization to cross each runway.

 

[Velocity173]

See this is why I asked the question in the first place. I received taxi instructions while still on the active runway. Those instructions included "continue to the end of the runway and exit via whiskey, continue to parking with me." The fact that I received taxi instructions while still on the runway seems to indicate that, at least in the mind of the controller I was taxing and no longer landing. If that's the case than standard operating procedure is to get permission to cross the runway you are going to taxi across before crossing the runway.

Nah it's like Steven said. You were given a landing clearance with no restriction. The fact that he told you to go to the end was probably so you wouldn't take the first available taxiway. Either he had taxiing traffic on another taxiway or whiskey was just the easiest way to the ramp. Only time in your situation that you would need to hear authorization across rwy 24 is if you came off 33L prior to rwy 24. Then ground would say something like "Taxi/continue/proceed to parking on taxiway alpha, cross rwy 24, turn right on whiskey to the ramp."

 

[spinfire]

In a related scenario, sometimes at bigger airports an inactive runway is used solely as a taxiway. If you were cleared to land on a different runway, then told to taxi onto 33L after turning off the landing runway, then I think you would need to hear "cleared to cross 24" in this case.

 

[roncachamp]

In a related scenario, sometimes at bigger airports an inactive runway is used solely as a taxiway. If you were cleared to land on a different runway, then told to taxi onto 33L after turning off the landing runway, then I think you would need to hear "cleared to cross 24" in this case.

The regulation places no requirement on the pilot to hear "cleared to cross runway XX" in order to cross a runway, active or inactive. The requirements are put on the controller.

 

[denverpilot]

The phraseology I've heard that seems clear is "...continue your rollout to the end, taxi via Alpha to the ramp, remain this frequency." The "rollout" indicates there's still a landing going on, not a "taxi on the runway".

But as others have pointed out, it's moot unless you accepted a LAHSO operation style clearance to hold short of 24. You can always ask if there is a question. Better to ask than be squished.