Cleared through Detroit Bravo airspace

flykelley

flykelley

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flykelley
Those words are not heard very often here in lower Michigan. Yesterday I was VFR from KPTK to KBJJ. Took off from Pontiac ask Detroit for flight following, and they asked me if I wanted Direct to BJJ through Detroit airspace. Took me right over the top of Detroit Metro at 4500 ft. Not sure what is going on but twice in the last month they have cleared me into their airspace, something in the past that has never been done before.

Mike
 
About a month or so ago I was cleared through DFW Bravo. Then a couple of weeks ago they vectored me around. Reason? I think I know:

The first time I clearly announced my position and altitude and was holding a rock solid altitude and heading while they were getting my squawk. I keyed in the squawk kickly and kept holding steady altitude and heading. I had asked for Flight Following via a point outside the Bravo that would have kept me out of it. Instead he gave me permission and told me to head for Love Field. I headed straight for it and held attitude and heading rock solid. I had heard him clearly and read back altitude and heading changes. In other words, it appeared to him that I knew what I was doing.

The second time I did it with only one radio while the other was out for repair. The radio was not set very well when he responded to my request and I could not understand what he was saying. It went downhill from there. When he responded back with I will vector you to Grand Prairie, I thought he said something aboout DIRECT to Grand Prairie. I am sure I sounded like a total dufus and he vectored me AROUND the Bravo.

My experience is limited at best, but here's what I think: If you tell them who you are, where you are and what you want to do in a professional manner and hold accurate altitude and heading you will look and sound like you know what you're doing and will get cooperation. If you don't, you won't.

The other thing I think is true, is that if you are looking for something that is normally done on a workload permitting basis, ASK for it rather than showing any hint of DEMAND for it.

I read somewhere that when something is a workload permitting, if you end your request with workload permitting, then the acknowledgment that you know they are not obligated to fulfill your request is a nice way to make the request and they are much more likely to cooperate.

AGAIN, I am a TOTAL rookie at this stuff. I learned to fly in the boondocks with not much more than the absolute minimum experience at a controlled airport before the checkride. Recent events have more or less forced me to learn to operate in and around controlled airspace, but it has been good for me. Some of my boondock friends who have been flying much longer than myself are asking ME how to do it.

Sorry for the rambling, but I hope it helps someone.
 
The vast majority of controllers are great guys/gals and will try to help out any way they can... In the hundreds of times I asked for FF I bet the denials are maybe 5-8 total.. The only time I can distinctly remember a no joy FF experience was back in the mid 80's,, leaving River Ranch Resort and needing to drop a pax off at Hernden, which is now Orl Ex. It was 10 pm on a Sunday and I was monitoring approach freq for 20 minutes to get a feel for how busy they were... It was REAL quiet so I politely asked for direct Hernden, denied.. I had to go the long way around..:mad::mad::mad::rolleyes2:
 
Good score.

The few times I contacted DTW APR during VFR FF they just told me to maintain VFR and avoid Bravo. I have been through their Bravo during IFR. All flight was in a pokey C172.
 
flykelley said:
Those words are not heard very often here in lower Michigan. Yesterday I was VFR from KPTK to KBJJ. Took off from Pontiac ask Detroit for flight following, and they asked me if I wanted Direct to BJJ through Detroit airspace. Took me right over the top of Detroit Metro at 4500 ft. Not sure what is going on but twice in the last month they have cleared me into their airspace, something in the past that has never been done before.

Mike
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Sounds like a safe place to be, straight overhead. There IS a named corridor they often clear VFR traffic through that takes you right over DTW, you might have been in it. I heard the name at a FAAST seminar a few months ago but it slips my mind at the moment.

But as far as being cleared through the Detroit Bravo, it's really, really not a big deal. They've offered it to me any number of times, the most recent time being last month coming back from Kelleys Island. It didn't do much for me since I was almost to the Windsor VOR before they said something, but there didn't seem to be strings attached so I went for it. Once coming back from Put-in Bay in the evening they cleared me straight through the east side of the Bravo, direct KFNT at 6500. It's variable, sometimes they'll say yes, sometimes no, but usually, if you want the clearance and are willing to wait and you're not asking to cross the arrival or departure path during a push time, they'll eventually give it to you.
 
And it happened again yesterday, enroute from VLL to 89D via the YQG VOR.

As has happened before in that area, even before giving me the Bravo clearance, the controller started giving me altitude restrictions and vectors in Class E airspace. My filed route is actually designed to not need a Bravo clearance, though I pass pretty close to the 4000 ft shelf. That's a difficult situation since I'm really not sure what I can do if I'm over Canada and the controller decides that he wants to send me halfway to MOONN. I'm tempted to refuse the Bravo clearance since I don't need it, but if I say that I prefer to stay own nav and maintain visual separation from any traffic, I don't exactly have many options if he decides he doesn't want to work me (you are REQUIRED to be squawking a discrete code and talking to ATC when overflying Canada). So far I haven't had a problem with any instruction I've been given, but I'm basically a captive customer and they treat me as if I was IFR (except for the ever-clarifying "maintain VFR at..." that accompanies all of the altitude restrictions).

But no, getting cleared through the Detroit Bravo is virtually an everyday occurrence, at least for me. Dunno, maybe they have a list of good citizens they've never had a problem with. Lord knows I've heard them have to get really nasty with some people who just don't listen.
 
azure said:
Sounds like a safe place to be, straight overhead. There IS a named corridor they often clear VFR traffic through that takes you right over DTW, you might have been in it. I heard the name at a FAAST seminar a few months ago but it slips my mind at the moment.

...
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Been cleared through every time I've asked. (Which is NOT every time I'm in the neighborhood. Between Troy [KVLL] or Ray [57D] and Toledo, there's a pretty easy visual route beneath the Bravo and outside of KDET Delta and stadium TFRs.)

The corridor is called the Cage.
 
JoeSelch said:
Been cleared through every time I've asked. (Which is NOT every time I'm in the neighborhood. Between Troy [KVLL] or Ray [57D] and Toledo, there's a pretty easy visual route beneath the Bravo and outside of KDET Delta and stadium TFRs.)
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The scenic route downriver over Grosse Ile?
The corridor is called the Cage.
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<slaps forehead> Doh!
 
JoeSelch said:
Been cleared through every time I've asked. (Which is NOT every time I'm in the neighborhood. Between Troy [KVLL] or Ray [57D] and Toledo, there's a pretty easy visual route beneath the Bravo and outside of KDET Delta and stadium TFRs.)

The corridor is called the Cage.
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Yes Joe I have flown that route several times. It just seems if you are coming north on the west side of Detroits class B you get the ever stay clear of class B airspace. Im now getting asked if I want to be cleared through their airspace with even asking them to clear me through it. And to get cleared over the airport at 4500 ft was not something I expect them to do.

Mike
 
I flew up to Oakland-Troy(VLL) today around 1 PM at 7500'. Got the "remain clear of Bravo" and an extra 10 minutes around the west side. Leaving VLL around 4:45 PM, was not chancing that again. Climbed to 9,500' and flew directly over DTW.
 
azure said:
Sounds like a safe place to be, straight overhead. There IS a named corridor they often clear VFR traffic through that takes you right over DTW, you might have been in it. I heard the name at a FAAST seminar a few months ago but it slips my mind at the moment.
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Think the helicopter guys I fly with used to use one called the "French" corridor that took you direct over 9R.
 
Lucky you, couple of months ago they just told me to stay clear and maintain vfr. Flying half way around their class b in a 152 with a 20 knot headwind was not very fun.
 
My very first XC I took as a PPL was this past Monday. I took a buddy and departed the Austin, TX area for Galveston. I talked to Austin approach on the way out to get flight following and they handed me off to Houston in short order. I was just flying direct, which would take me through the Houston Bravo, until they cleared me or told me what to do differently. I'm flying along and the approach controller comes on and clears me into the Bravo but asks me to drop to 4000ft and fly a heading 10 degrees to the right of a direct to Galveston. I ended up flying no more than 10 miles or so south of Hobby Airport, but once I cleared the Bravo I had visual on Galveston and asked to terminate radar services. They told me no one was between me and Galveston, gave me the tower freq and that was that. Pretty uneventful...and sure fun flying right over Houston on my first flight. :) I had flown into several Class C spaces during my training - but no Class B...not really any different other than you have to hear "Cleared in Bravo" to come in.
 
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kenjr said:
My very first XC I took as a PPL was this past Monday. I took a buddy and departed the Austin, TX area for Galveston. I talked to Austin approach on the way out to get flight following and they handed me off to Houston in short order. I was just flying direct, which would take me through the Houston Bravo, until they cleared me or told me what to do differently. I'm flying along and the approach controller comes on and clears me into the Bravo but asks me to drop to 4000ft and fly a heading 10 degrees to the right of a direct to Galveston. I ended up flying no more than 10 miles or so south of Hobby Airport, but once I cleared the Bravo I had visual on Galveston and asked to terminate radar services. They told me no one was between me and Galveston, gave me the tower freq and that was that. Pretty uneventful...and sure fun flying right over Houston on my first flight. :) I had flown into several Class C spaces during my training - but no Class B...not really any different other than you have to hear "Cleared in Bravo" to come in.
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Congrats on the experience...:cheers:

Most class Bravo airspaces will work with pilots.. There are a few who want to play airspace god and make you deviate even if there is no conflict just to show you how big their power trip is.......

Now that I think about it, the political parties are doing the exact same thing..:mad2::mad2::mad:
 
N801BH said:
Most class Bravo airspaces will work with pilots.. There are a few who want to play airspace god and make you deviate even if there is no conflict just to show you how big their power trip is.......
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Well, I haven't experienced the latter.

I don't understand why instructors try to scare students about it. Mine even offered a "checkout" after my checkride. WTF? I declined. A few weeks later, I went up with passengers, asked for a Class B transition, got clearance, no worries.

And almost everyone who tries that comes back saying "Is that all there is to it?"

I'm still a firm believer that it's far easier to transition Class B than to avoid it.
 
Missa said:
Had to be a slow day... they are better then Chicigo.
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St. Louis was nice about it when I was down there last month. While on ground at KCPS, we requested flight following. Once airborne, they immediately cleared us without us asking through the Bravo. As we approached ORD Bravo, it was as usual, "Maintain clear of Bravo".
 
Before getting FF on the return trip from VLL, I just ask Detroit App what the possibility of getting a transition at 7500' to the south over DTW. "No chance. Okay, thank you." I continued my 1700-1000 fpm climb to 8500'(top of Bravo) and turned south while climbing on up to 9500'. No vectoring outside Bravo and I was listening to the same App freqs home in reverse. The same 1.5 hrs home with no 15-25 kt tailwind like I had coming up. Just that little jog around the west side coming up did away with a nice tailwind. We saw one heavy 10 nm away on the return trip.

I have been through Orlando and Cincinnati's without a problem with aircraft everywhere.
 
Getting cleared through the Detroit Bravo is a "dog bites man" story. Getting cleared through Chicago, by all accounts, is "man bites dog".

That said, you do often hear "remain clear of the bravo" around here. But I've been cleared through without asking too, and also vectored through when IFR. All depends on traffic and their workload.
 
azure said:
Getting cleared through the Detroit Bravo is a "dog bites man" story. Getting cleared through Chicago, by all accounts, is "man bites dog".

That said, you do often hear "remain clear of the bravo" around here. But I've been cleared through without asking too, and also vectored through when IFR. All depends on traffic and their workload.
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I always hear this and the 3 times I asked, I was cleared, once was even in an Ag Cat.:dunno:
 
The thing with a Bravo clearance is it adds to our workload in general and it isn't always just the workload of the controller you're talking to. The controller telling you no may very well have a plan to get you through. Its one of the other 2 or 3 or 4 controllers whose airspace you'll clip who don't (or legitimately can't) and give the unable.

If I clear a pilot in to the Bravo I now owe them and their conflicts 1.5 miles of lateral separation and 500 feet vertical generally speaking. Not that I don't strive to give VFR FF pilots similar regardless, but if the heading is swaying 45 degrees and the altitude altitude is plus or minus 300, sorry I'm not doing it because under those circumstances its unlikely the pilot can give me even a fighting chance. Class C and D operates under different rules. Class B is like diet IFR.

Its been exceptionally rare that I've denied. Most of the time its been inability to communicate in a timely fashion or aircraft control issues. Rarely its been some request like wanting to fly at 1500 AGL over the approach side of the main airport crossing a 4 mile final. Once or twice its been a denial looking at the arrival projector and thinking, hmmm, 80 knots, a ton of arrivals from that direction 300 miles away, this will get ugly in 20 minutes.

I've been the (I'm sure the pilot was thinking Airspace God) denying a Bravo on a dead frequency. Meanwhile the sector the pilot wanted to transit was being hammered and the transition would have been impossible. I'm pretty sure I was that guy.
 
flykelley said:
Those words are not heard very often here in lower Michigan. Yesterday I was VFR from KPTK to KBJJ. Took off from Pontiac ask Detroit for flight following, and they asked me if I wanted Direct to BJJ through Detroit airspace. Took me right over the top of Detroit Metro at 4500 ft. Not sure what is going on but twice in the last month they have cleared me into their airspace, something in the past that has never been done before.

Mike
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That has happened to me in their airspace as well. It is fun looking down on the big airport when you fly over on VMC days.
 
I was on my engine break in flight in the Warrior cleared thru Boston's Bravo at 2,500 when a different controller came up on the radio and ordered me to immediately exit with a right turn to 230. Once on the ground, I called the tower supervisor who reviewed the tapes and interviewed the controller. When he called me back, he said the first controller should never had cleared me at 2,500. Since then, I've always approached at 3,500 but offered to go higher. At 3,500 and vectors, I've gone thru Bravo every time.
Then there's the helicopter routes. Most time the ceiling is 800' but the Quare route (Route 3/95 south) is usually 300'. You pass about 1,000' below the 4L/R approach to Logan.
Sometimes, transition is all about knowing the airspace, which runways are in use, and if there's a preferred altitude or course. You can help yourself by choosing a course that avoids conflicts.
 
ScottM said:
That has happened to me in their airspace as well. It is fun looking down on the big airport when you fly over on VMC days.
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Safest place to be is directly over any class B airport..:yes:

Approach control has all inbound flights lined up 10 or so miles out for a straight in and departure control does not launch outbound flights with turns on course until they are a few miles out.

Ps.... All bets are off if they are launching rockets at that Bravo airport.:eek:.
 
Approach_controller said:
When they are built at the airport it isn't uncommon.

:wink2:
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Since you seem to be a controller you must know the rules...

I thought there was NO aerobatic flights performed in a airport traffic area. ie, anything greater then 30 degrees nose upand , or or down or 60 degrees of bank angle is considered aerobatic flight.. Do those fighters have to get a aerobatic waiver for each flight ?.. If so, is there a NOTAM published for that ?:dunno:

Thanks in advance for your answer.:)
 
N801BH said:
Since you seem to be a controller you must know the rules...

I thought there was NO aerobatic flights performed in a airport traffic area. ie, anything greater then 30 degrees nose upand , or or down or 60 degrees of bank angle is considered aerobatic flight.. Do those fighters have to get a aerobatic waiver for each flight ?.. If so, is there a NOTAM published for that ?:dunno:

Thanks in advance for your answer.:)
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I'm not all that great with the FARs since that really is much more of a FSDO function. Of course, the military has many special provisions to allow them to train and accomplish their mission that are forbidden to civilian pilots such as MARSA and the 250 below 10,000 waiver which are LOAs directly with the FAA and not really subject to waiver.

I did get pretty curious and dug around. I found FAA AC91-45C which will show up if you google for it. 6-A of the AC under heading of Definitions states in part Aerobatic flight "Normal positioning turns for high performance aircraft operated by the military regardless of angle of bank or pitch attitude are not considered to be aviation event aerobatic maneuvers."

The next section defines aviation event as more or less any way a civilian could conduct aerobatics (ie competition, show, practice, etc.)

In the specific case I mentioned the manufacturer may have a specific waiver that I am unaware of. I honestly haven't looked at the LOA in years since it hasn't changed and I've only concerned myself with what portions included my facility.
 
N801BH said:
..

Ha..... How often does that happen at a Bravo airport?:confused:..
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Used to happen all day every Friday in St Louis, I'd watch em from Floyd Hauhe Auto Auction right near by. That's when they test flew all the new builds.:yesnod:
 
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