Cleared for takeoff question

jspilot

jspilot

Cleared for Takeoff
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jspilot
Yesterday I went and did some landing practice. I was doing full stop taxi backs( flight school policy is private pilots/ renters can't do touch and go's) while another flight school plane was doing touch and go's clearly with a student pilot and instructor. While I was taxing back to the runway after one of my landings I was cleared for takeoff literally 2 minutes before I reached the end of the runway. As I reached the hold short line I saw the plane doing touch and go's touch down and then take right back off right about the same time I was approaching the hold short lines. I slowly entered the runway because he was clear and on upwind but if, in my judgement I would have added full power and took off as I usual would, I would have been way to close to the plane in front of me. We were both 172's with the same horsepower so I knew I would not gain on him. I stopped on the runway for maybe 5 seconds and then gave it full power and off I went. It worked out fine and spacing was a non issue but I was left with a question. In a situation as I've tried to describe in which you get cleared for take off long before arriving and the hold short lines and then you realize the spacing is a little tight what is the best course of action? Obviously you don't want to park on the runway in case other traffic is coming( which there was not in my case). Do any more experienced pilots have a good guidline for when to takeoff with a plane in front of them( wait for him to turn crosswind, a visual cue)?

In hindsight I guess I could have stopped short of the runway but because of the way the taxi way aligns with the runway it was hard to judge the other planes position relative to mine until I got on the runway.
 
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no touch and go's?! unless they say 'no delay' then it's your call, but usually your takeoff roll will be sufficient time to get spacing - just keep an eye on em.
 
Not only is it your call, but tower expects you to go ahead and launch without any unusual delay. In any event, they certainly can clear you for takeoff in that situation if the controller is confident that the minimum spacing (3000 feet, I believe, between two 172's) will not be compromised. If you're not comfortable with it, just tell them, and work out something that is comfortable with tower.

As for "no T&G's," I can understand the flight school's caution -- too many accidents occur during T&G's when an inexperienced pilot gets impatient or misjudges distance remaining.
 
Thanks for the help so far. As for the no touch and go's I was told it's because of insurance policies. It's usually not a big deal because the runways are so long at my airport I can just make a 180 at the taxiway I exit on and re-enter the runway and take back off.

Ron Levy said:
Not only is it your call, but tower expects you to go ahead and launch without any unusual delay. In any event, they certainly can clear you for takeoff in that situation if the controller is confident that the minimum spacing (3000 feet, I believe, between two 172's) will not be compromised. If you're not comfortable with it, just tell them, and work out something that is comfortable with tower.
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So what is the proper procedure then if you take the runway then realize the spacing is a little to close? Should you contact the tower advise them of your concern and then just sit there? Should you exit the runway and then advise them? I'd be very concerned with sitting on the runway waiting for them to get back to you especially because where I fly is a busy airport and that exchange could create a bad situation quickly. Does the "cleared for take off" imply that in there eyes the spacing is fine and to just go ahead and take off?

Sorry for all the questions but this situation seems like it could be a tough spot waiting to happen.
 
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jspilot said:
Thanks for the help so far. As for the no touch and go's I was told it's because of insurance policies. It's usually not a big deal because the runways are so long at my airport I can just make a 180 at the taxiway I exit on and re-enter the runway and take back off.



So what is the proper procedure then if you take the runway then realize the spacing is a little to close? Should you contact the tower advise them of your concern and then just sit there? Should you exit the runway and then advise them? I'd be very concerned with sitting on the runway waiting for them to get back to you especially because where I fly is a busy airport and that exchange could create a bad situation quickly. Does the "cleared for take off" imply that in there eyes the spacing is fine and to just go ahead and take off?

Sorry for all the questions but this situation seems like it could be a tough spot waiting to happen.
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Obviously don't do anything you feel uncomfortable with. You could ask for a 1 minute delay. He'll probably come back and say "approved" or "roger cancel take-off clearance advise when ready for take-off." Or they might say "line up and wait, advise when ready for take-off." Multiple ways of handling it but as you said you fly out of a busy airport. They're going to give you clearances that seem pretty tight with other aircraft. As Ron said, 3,000 ft is required for two Cat I aircraft departing. That doesn't mean he has to have it before issuing the clearance. Often they use anticipated separation if he's believes he'll have it by the time you start take-off roll.

You actually are in a better learning enviroment by flying out of a busy airport. You'll learn communications faster and begin to prioritize your actions better than someone training at an uncontrolled airfield. Still don't accept a clearance you can't do and if you feel rushed, take a break. You just might forget something like before take-off checks!
 
The last flight school I used would allow T&G in a Cherokee, but not a 172. I can raise the flaps in a Cherokee in about two seconds... the 172 with electric flaps takes considerably longer.
 
If you think the spacing is too close it is best to not taxi into position on the runway. Just tell tower you are not ready for takeoff yet.

In addition, don't block the entrance to the runway, the aircraft behind you might be just fine with the spacing and will need to get around you. This scenario is possible if you want to hold for more than the 3 minutes for wake turbulence, but the airplane behind you wants to go.
 
I'm puzzled how the spacing could be a concern if, as you stated, you're both flying the same equipment. The plane doing touch n gos is going away from you at a faster speed (flying verses you sitting there parked) than you. By the time you get to flying speed he'll be turning crosswind or close to it. If you still don't like the spacing just extend your upwind. There's no problem here.


Also, what's the point of clearing the runway and doing a 180 to then enter the runway at the same spot? Why not just do stop n gos if the owner of the plane doesn't allow touch n goes?
 
jspilot said:
So what is the proper procedure then if you take the runway then realize the spacing is a little to close?
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Contact tower, tell them your concern, and if you don't get a fast response, get off the runway.

Should you contact the tower advise them of your concern
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Yes.

and then just sit there?
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No. That could compromise separation with a landing aircraft.

Should you exit the runway and then advise them?
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You could, but I think a call first is better, keeping clearing the runway in your hip pocket as your next move if tower doesn't respond.

Does the "cleared for take off" imply that in there eyes the spacing is fine and to just go ahead and take off?
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Absolutely yes.
 
Captain said:
I'm puzzled how the spacing could be a concern if, as you stated, you're both flying the same equipment. The plane doing touch n gos is going away from you at a faster speed (flying verses you sitting there parked) than you. By the time you get to flying speed he'll be turning crosswind or close to it. If you still don't like the spacing just extend your upwind. There's no problem here.


Also, what's the point of clearing the runway and doing a 180 to then enter the runway at the same spot? Why not just do stop n gos if the owner of the plane doesn't allow touch n goes?
Click to expand...

The spacing in this instance was not a real concern because it was a not a safety issue but the event got me thinking and I wanted some feedback, hence the question.

The point of exiting the runway is that doing stop and go's supposedly clogs up the runway for a longer time then exiting and 180'ing and stoping short of the hold short line and then getting take off clearance again. We are allowed to do stop and go's only when the airport is not busy.
 
If they're giving away free flight time then I suppose I could swallow it...sorta. My guess is they are charging money for the plane though. All that stupidness is costing you money.

To tell me I can't do touch n gos and then to further require stop n gos to depart the runway only if to re-enter the runway at the same spot would be enough to send me packing looking for a new place to rent.


And what do you mean 'takes too much time on the runway'? Tower either approves it or they don't. At an uncontrolled field it's your runway until you're done with it. I'd be gone from that place.
 
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jspilot said:
The point of exiting the runway is that doing stop and go's supposedly clogs up the runway for a longer time then exiting and 180'ing and stoping short of the hold short line and then getting take off clearance again. We are allowed to do stop and go's only when the airport is not busy.
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I agree with Captain, that policy doesn't make a lot of sense. Is it an airport policy, or the flight school's? I mean, I guess if you're at a very busy class B and it's the push time for airline arrivals and departures, and they've got a whole line of jets on the arrival they might not let you do it then, but there must be slower times.

If that's not the case, just ask the tower controller for the option. If you hear, "Cleared for the option," you can do a stop-and-go or taxi off (or a touch and go, though not in your case), it's your choice.
 
If its that busy then tower isn't going to approve stop and gos or touch and gos or the option.

If tower approves the stop n go then they don't need the runway and the 'It takes too much time' argument is moot.
 
I can understand students, but he mentioned stop & go's for everyone!
 
I hear ya guys on the touch and go's. It's really not a big deal because sometimes I get delayed with traffic and other times not at all. On the day described I did 4 full stop taxi backs in .7 on the Hobbs.

I do think the policy comes from a safety concern but I don't know. Anyway, does anyone have any help on my question about what to do if you receive takeoff clearance and are not comfortable with the spacing once you've taken the runway?
 
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The proper course of action is same as always, "use due caution, exercise due care and don't **** it up." Sounds like you did fine on all counts, well done. See and avoid is always your responsibility for as far as you can see no matter who says what.
 
oh, thought it was answered. easiest answer - if you run up on the plane in front of you - turn or slow down.
 
jspilot said:
Anyway, does anyone have any help on my question about what to do if you receive takeoff clearance and are not comfortable with the spacing once you've taken the runway?
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"Tower, Bugsmasher xxx, unable takeoff. Request (1 minute, 3 minutes, whatever) delay." Then do what they tell you.

If you can't raise the tower, as someone already pointed out, taxi off the runway, then call and wait for instructions.

Don't do anything you're not comfortable with. But remember as you get more experience, you can increase your comfort level.
 
jspilot said:
Anyway, does anyone have any help on my question about what to do if you receive takeoff clearance and are not comfortable with the spacing once you've taken the runway?
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Best advice I can give is that any time you have a question or concern about any clearance or advice given by ATC then ask them. Just let them know your concern and generally they will work with you to resolve any potential problem. Always try to be polite and direct when communicating. If you want to delay entering the runway or even delay on the runway then tell the controller what and why and they'll approve it or tell you why your proposed actioin doesn't fit with their plans.
 
The tower cleared you for takeoff but you want more spacing?

Two options: a) delay crossing the hold short line, asking tower for a short delay; or b) take off promptly, keeping an eye on your traffic, and delay your turn to crosswind to increase the separation between you and your traffic.

-Skip
 
I'm not going to get snarky. I'm sure your question is valid and on point. I imagine you're a 'newer' pilot and asking questions is exactly what you should do. But asking questions is only half of it. You have to listen to the answers too.

Here are the quotes I found in a few minutes effort that answer your original question and they were all posted before you asked the question again (that's the first quote).



jspilot said:
I hear ya guys on the touch and go's. It's really not a big deal because sometimes I get delayed with traffic and other times not at all. On the day described I did 4 full stop taxi backs in .7 on the Hobbs.

I do think the policy comes from a safety concern but I don't know. Anyway, does anyone have any help on my question about what to do if you receive takeoff clearance and are not comfortable with the spacing once you've taken the runway?
Click to expand...

Ron Levy said:
Not only is it your call, but tower expects you to go ahead and launch without any unusual delay. In any event, they certainly can clear you for takeoff in that situation if the controller is confident that the minimum spacing (3000 feet, I believe, between two 172's) will not be compromised. If you're not comfortable with it, just tell them, and work out something that is comfortable with tower.

As for "no T&G's," I can understand the flight school's caution -- too many accidents occur during T&G's when an inexperienced pilot gets impatient or misjudges distance remaining.
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Velocity173 said:
Obviously don't do anything you feel uncomfortable with. You could ask for a 1 minute delay. He'll probably come back and say "approved" or "roger cancel take-off clearance advise when ready for take-off." Or they might say "line up and wait, advise when ready for take-off." Multiple ways of handling it but as you said you fly out of a busy airport. They're going to give you clearances that seem pretty tight with other aircraft. As Ron said, 3,000 ft is required for two Cat I aircraft departing. That doesn't mean he has to have it before issuing the clearance. Often they use anticipated separation if he's believes he'll have it by the time you start take-off roll.

You actually are in a better learning enviroment by flying out of a busy airport. You'll learn communications faster and begin to prioritize your actions better than someone training at an uncontrolled airfield. Still don't accept a clearance you can't do and if you feel rushed, take a break. You just might forget something like before take-off checks!
Click to expand...

kgruber said:
If you think the spacing is too close it is best to not taxi into position on the runway. Just tell tower you are not ready for takeoff yet.

In addition, don't block the entrance to the runway, the aircraft behind you might be just fine with the spacing and will need to get around you. This scenario is possible if you want to hold for more than the 3 minutes for wake turbulence, but the airplane behind you wants to go.
Click to expand...

Captain said:
I'm puzzled how the spacing could be a concern if, as you stated, you're both flying the same equipment. The plane doing touch n gos is going away from you at a faster speed (flying verses you sitting there parked) than you. By the time you get to flying speed he'll be turning crosswind or close to it. If you still don't like the spacing just extend your upwind. There's no problem here.


Also, what's the point of clearing the runway and doing a 180 to then enter the runway at the same spot? Why not just do stop n gos if the owner of the plane doesn't allow touch n goes?
Click to expand...

Ron Levy said:
Contact tower, tell them your concern, and if you don't get a fast response, get off the runway.

Yes.

No. That could compromise separation with a landing aircraft.

You could, but I think a call first is better, keeping clearing the runway in your hip pocket as your next move if tower doesn't respond.

Absolutely yes.
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Aviation is sometimes like a role in a play. Everyone does better when everyone knows their role and expects the others to play their role. Tower was perhaps expecting a somewhat experienced pilot or at least someone who would read their lines on cue. You were uneasy in your part in the action. It might help, if appropriate, to next time tell the tower "student pilot" or "not familiar with this airport" or whatever message alerts the tower that they might want to give you more attention in whatever way was best. As Ron said a little more nicely, don't start second guessing tower. Do what they say or tell them you're unable or uncomfortable and work out an alternative.
 
Appreciate all the answers. Captain yes I'm a newer pilot with about 90 hours in the book. One thing I've learned so far is after you get your ticket you kind of need to ask questions from others who are more experienced to help with these kind of situations because you don't have the access to the instructor to post flight recap with. I'm glad I found this site for that very reason!
 
jspilot said:
Appreciate all the answers. Captain yes I'm a newer pilot with about 90 hours in the book. One thing I've learned so far is after you get your ticket you kind of need to ask questions from others who are more experienced to help with these kind of situations because you don't have the access to the instructor to post flight recap with. I'm glad I found this site for that very reason!
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Well glad you found the place.

In the case of spacing in your example, the plane in fron is up to speed so he's opening the distance quickly. Tools you can use to increase the distance with the plane in front of you in a circuit are:

A. delaying the takeoff (you were cleared to take off but that doesn't mean you have to screech the tires lining up) so take your time...

B. extend the up wind. Fly upwind past the point where the plane in front turned cross wind...

C. Slow down. Not saying to fly the pattern with flaps, but you don't have to full power either...

D. Extend the downwind. Turn base past the point where the plane in front of you turned base.


With these tools a Citation X can share the pattern with an LSA. (Okay, the Citation has another tool...they fly a much wider pattern) but you get the idea.

I really am sorry if my last post came off snarky. I'm a recovering butthurt.
 
Captain said:
Well glad you found the place.

In the case of spacing in your example, the plane in fron is up to speed so he's opening the distance quickly. Tools you can use to increase the distance with the plane in front of you in a circuit are:

A. delaying the takeoff (you were cleared to take off but that doesn't mean you have to screech the tires lining up) so take your time...

B. extend the up wind. Fly upwind past the point where the plane in front turned cross wind...

C. Slow down. Not saying to fly the pattern with flaps, but you don't have to full power either...

D. Extend the downwind. Turn base past the point where the plane in front of you turned base.


With these tools a Citation X can share the pattern with an LSA. (Okay, the Citation has another tool...they fly a much wider pattern) but you get the idea.

I really am sorry if my last post came off snarky. I'm a recovering butthurt.
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Maybe another tool would be a Vx climb. This will increase the spacing, even on the upwind leg. AND it will get you out of the way of landing traffic in minimum time. In addition, delay your crosswind until the other aircraft passes you abeam on the downwind, if necessary. Then, be careful to follow the path of the aircraft in front of you on downwind. If your pattern is "better" (closer) than theirs, you will gain on them. A lot of pilots seem to fly B-52 patterns.
 
But back on topic, the only time I would intentionally delay for departing (or for that matter freshly arrived) traffic is if it's a heavy and I'm worried about wake turbulence.

Tower: "Arrow 123SA you are cleared for takeoff. Caution wake turbulence. "

123 Sac Arrow: "Unable, can you give me a two minute delay?"

Tower: "Sure thing. For you, anything. "
 
Wake turbulence. Reminded me of a funny exchange.

I was flying with a guy. My leg landing in Pheonix. We were landing on a runway that a large plane was departing. The guy I was flying with said, "watch out for wake turbulence behind that guy."

I said, "ummm, he's taking off. The wake doesn't start until he flies and I'll be off the runway by that point."

He responds, "yeah, not wake turbulence...it's a just a big plane..be careful"

So I ask, "Jet Blast? That only goes to a few hundred feet behind the plane. By the time we land we'll be at least a mile behind it."

He comes back, "Well, something that big just moves a lot of air when it moves."


Amazing some of the crazy ideas that are out there. I blew off the entire conversation and we landed normally.
 
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