Cleared Direct

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
9,034
Location
Near DC
Display Name
Display name:
Jaybird180
For a long XC IFR flight with 0-0 takeoff in the clag, ending with an approach to mins, a flight plan is filed using airway and VOR navigation. The aircraft is RNAV capable, but the pilot chose to file an otherwise customary route.

Center comes on the radio and offers to save the pilot a load of time with the words, "Cleared Direct Destination".

The pilot is inclined to accept the clearance
Q1: Does cleared direct mean cleared to the IAF of the approach as-filed? Or Cleared to some other point first (airport flyover) then a PT to the IF?
Q2: Where can I find the reference for the answer? (but I want the answer first - limited reference material with me)
 
I dont know the formal answer, but in real life that question is irrelevant. Once I am wihin 50 miles they either:
- ask 'which approach do you want at blablabla ?'
or
- tell me 'blablabla is landing the ils, cleared to blafix'
 
Jaybird180 said:
For a long XC IFR flight with 0-0 takeoff in the clag, ending with an approach to mins, a flight plan is filed using airway and VOR navigation. The aircraft is RNAV capable, but the pilot chose to file an otherwise customary route.

Center comes on the radio and offers to save the pilot a load of time with the words, "Cleared Direct Destination".

The pilot is inclined to accept the clearance
Q1: Does cleared direct mean cleared to the IAF of the approach as-filed? Or Cleared to some other point first (airport flyover) then a PT to the IF?
Click to expand...

It means direct to the destination airport.

Q2: Where can I find the reference for the answer? (but I want the answer first - limited reference material with me)
Click to expand...

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

DIRECT− Straight line flight between two navigational
aids, fixes, points, or any combination thereof.
When used by pilots in describing off-airway routes,
points defining direct route segments become
compulsory reporting points unless the aircraft is
under radar contact.
 
roncachamp said:
It means direct to the destination airport.



From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

DIRECT− Straight line flight between two navigational
aids, fixes, points, or any combination thereof.
When used by pilots in describing off-airway routes,
points defining direct route segments become
compulsory reporting points unless the aircraft is
under radar contact.
Click to expand...

How do you expect the pilot to land when conditions are IMC to mins?
 
roncachamp said:
It means direct to the destination airport.
Click to expand...
That's how I would interpret it too -- in fact I would read it back that way, so that the controller could correct me if need be -- saying aloud the name or identifier of the airport.
 
Jaybird180 said:
How do you expect the pilot to land when conditions are IMC to mins?
Click to expand...

Whomever is the controlling facility for the destination airport is isn't going to let it get that far. That's part of the arrival information that they're required to give you in this case. "N123, looks like XYZ is now IFR with 200 OVC and 1/2 mile visibility. Expect ILS rwy 27 approach fly heading 300."
 
Jaybird180 said:
How do you expect the pilot to land when conditions are IMC to mins?
Click to expand...
This is a lost comms question then? You're supposed to follow the standard lost comms protocol, hold at the clearance limit (in this case over the airport), proceed to an IAF at the calculated time and shoot an approach. If it's below mins you then go missed and proceed to an alternate (a suitable alternate, not necessarily the one you filed. They'll be watching and clear everyone out of your way.)

If not lost comms, then as Mcfly says, it will never get that far.
 
azure said:
This is a lost comms question then? You're supposed to follow the standard lost comms protocol, hold at the clearance limit (in this case over the airport), proceed to an IAF at the calculated time and shoot an approach.
Click to expand...
Although the regulation appears to say otherwise, you do not hold at the clearance limit unless you were explicitly issued an EFC at that limit. This was addressed by the Chief Counsel a few years ago.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...010/olshock - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...esselles_jr - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
So, upon arrival over the airport, you would immediately proceed to a fix from which an approach begins, and then commence your approach (or if you're too high, descent and approach) upon expiration of your filed ETE (or immediately if your ETE has already elapsed).

If it's below mins you then go missed and proceed to an alternate (a suitable alternate, not necessarily the one you filed...
Click to expand...
Agreed -- go where you think you have the best chance of getting in.

...They'll be watching and clear everyone out of your way.)
Click to expand...
Only if they can see you. Otherwise, they'll do their best to guess where you might go. However, I've never heard of anybody going truly lost comm and then missing at their filed destination, so that's more an academic question which has never arisen in practice.
 
Ron Levy said:
So, upon arrival over the airport, you would immediately proceed to a fix from which an approach begins, and then commence your approach (or if you're too high, descent and approach) upon expiration of your filed ETE (or immediately if your ETE has already elapsed).
Click to expand...
Thanks for the correction and references. I was sure I had read that somewhere a while ago and that someone would correct me, but I couldn't remember the details and the reg MOST DEFINITELY does not say this. (Why the heck don't they rewrite the paragraph if that's not what they want you to do?)
 
But the airfield he's going to only has a radar approach available. :)
 
Azure- Thank you for re-framing my question. You accurately captured the spirit and intent of what I was looking for.

Ron- Thank you for the CC Interpretation and your ad-lib
 
Jaybird180 said:
Azure- Thank you for re-framing my question. You accurately captured the spirit and intent of what I was looking for.

Ron- Thank you for the CC Interpretation and your ad-lib
Click to expand...

Well, re-framing it as a lost comm question misses the point, if you ask me. Who is offering the direct clearance, approach control or someone upstream? If you still have 200 miles to go, can they tell the difference between a track to an IAF or one to the airport? You're going to sound a little silly asking for clarification between, say, the Mansfield VOR and the Mansfield airport, a track difference of far less than a degree from most directions. On the other hand, if approach control clears you direct to the airport and you "think" you'll need to shoot an approach--has the weather improved so much you can expect a visual? I'd get that one clarified.

As to the lost comm aspect, the cite written by Dave Pardo is an older interpretation than one I wrangled out of his replacement at the Office of the Chief Counsel, Sabrina Jawed. In the response to an email question regarding the term "Clearance limit", she states: "Amendment 91-189 replaced the title of section 91.185(c)(3), 'Leave Holding Fix', with the title 'Leave Clearance Limit'.

So, in order to thoroughly understand the meaning of today's rule you first need to know what the rule used to state and how the FAA explained it, which they did very well through Exam-O-Grams. Once you know how it used to be, then you apply the changes from Amendment 91-189 to both the old rule and the Exam-O-Gram for an understanding that makes perfect sense in today's jet age. There is no loitering for ETA, as an example, if you've not been given a "holding fix" ("clearance limit" in today's vernacular). You can read all about it, complete with Exam-O-Grams in a special tutorial on my website here: http://www.avclicks.com/lost_comm/Lost_comm2/index.html

dtuuri
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
But the airfield he's going to only has a radar approach available. :)
Click to expand...
Then you've gone beyond the scope of 91.185(c), so 91.3(b) applies, and you do whatever is necessary to get on the ground safely, hoping ATC can see what you're doing and clear other traffic out of the way.
 
Ron Levy said:
Then you've gone beyond the scope of 91.185(c), so 91.3(b) applies, and you do whatever is necessary to get on the ground safely, hoping ATC can see what you're doing and clear other traffic out of the way.
Click to expand...

Yep. Not to mention that shortly after checking in with approach they'll be issuing lost commo instructions so everyone is on the same page. "Cessna 12345, if no transmissions are received for one minute in the pattern or one five seconds (ASR) on final approach, attempt contact XYZ approach (possibly tower) on 123.5 and proceed VFR, if unable, say intentions." Usually if they have little or no experience with GCAs the reply will be something like, "OK thank you" or "Ah, what are you asking me now?" :confused:
 
Velocity173 said:
Whomever is the controlling facility for the destination airport is isn't going to let it get that far. That's part of the arrival information that they're required to give you in this case. "N123, looks like XYZ is now IFR with 200 OVC and 1/2 mile visibility. Expect ILS rwy 27 approach fly heading 300."
Click to expand...

Actually, ATC typically isn't going to tell you what the weather is at your destination. There going to ask if you have the "current weather/ATIS" or "advise when you have the weather". That is typically the big hint where you say "yes" and I'd like to fly the XYZ approach with PDQ as the IAF.
 
Baron2PG said:
Actually, ATC typically isn't going to tell you what the weather is at your destination. There going to ask if you have the "current weather/ATIS" or "advise when you have the weather". That is typically the big hint where you say "yes" and I'd like to fly the XYZ approach with PDQ as the IAF.
Click to expand...


My example is a change in weather or a speci. Like the aircraft is direct in the OPs case for a VA but the weather changed to IFR on arrival. Also, could be for an airport that doesn't have weather reporting and the controller is just giving the pilot his weather. This used to be common before most of the fields started putting up ASOS/AWOSs making it easy for us.
 
Note that if you are in VFR conditions you need to land as soon as practicable which while it doesn't mean the closest airport, it doesn't mean blunder on to your original destination either (the NTSB has upheld an enforcement action over this).
 
azure said:
If not lost comms, then as Mcfly says, it will never get that far.
Click to expand...

Oh, but it happened to me!

Flying home from visiting NC in the spring, a nasty cold front blew through so we waited and went home on Monday morning since there was an "Emergency PIREP" for icing on the airway by Beckley, WV.

I labored over the enroutes and figured a devious, twisty VOR course that would allow me to stay at 6000' most of the way home, except for ~30 miles in deepest WV where MEAs were 6800. Passing Greensboro at 4000' and preparing to climb, I was given "cleared direct to destination" of Huntington, WV.

So I climbed into the clouds and kept a wary eye outside for ice and inside on the OAT that was hovering at 38ºF. Descended most of an hour later with nothing but some snow blowing past, exited clouds around 3000' and finished up VFR into my home field. Would rather have stayed lower and flown the longer distance . . .

So, it DOES in fact, get that far sometimes.
 
ATC doesn't know why a pilot/operator files a certain route. 99.999% of the time! we give direct clearances when we believe we can provide a better service, or we gain an operational advantage by doing so. If the direct routing doesn't jive with what you need, let ATC know in response.
 
Hank S said:
So I climbed into the clouds and kept a wary eye outside for ice and inside on the OAT that was hovering at 38ºF. Descended most of an hour later with nothing but some snow blowing past, exited clouds around 3000' and finished up VFR into my home field. Would rather have stayed lower and flown the longer distance . . .

So, it DOES in fact, get that far sometimes.
Click to expand...
Neat adventure, but what does that have to do with what I wrote? What "wouldn't get that far" except under lost comms is where you get to your destination IFR but all you have is your destination as CL and no clearance to an IAF. But you said you finished VFR. :confused:
 
Hank S said:
Oh, but it happened to me!

Flying home from visiting NC in the spring, a nasty cold front blew through so we waited and went home on Monday morning since there was an "Emergency PIREP" for icing on the airway by Beckley, WV.

I labored over the enroutes and figured a devious, twisty VOR course that would allow me to stay at 6000' most of the way home, except for ~30 miles in deepest WV where MEAs were 6800. Passing Greensboro at 4000' and preparing to climb, I was given "cleared direct to destination" of Huntington, WV.

So I climbed into the clouds and kept a wary eye outside for ice and inside on the OAT that was hovering at 38ºF. Descended most of an hour later with nothing but some snow blowing past, exited clouds around 3000' and finished up VFR into my home field. Would rather have stayed lower and flown the longer distance . . .

So, it DOES in fact, get that far sometimes.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the OPs situation. If it's VFR at the destination, then yeah go direct, get the field in sight and get cleared for the visual. If it changes to IFR, then the situation will never "get that far" where they leave you direct the destination until you actually fly overhead (unless the IAF is a NAVAID on the field). At some point, ATC is going to tell you what approach to expect and vector you or send you direct a fix on the approach long before you reach the destination.

Apparently what JB was hinting at was lost commo in the direct the airfield scenario which ended up being was answered by Ron. Steven and I took the common sense approach and thought he was just asking what to do on arrival if direct the airfield? You're going to do an IAP. That simple.
 
I'm cleared to an airport when I get my IFR clearance but that doesn't mean I have a clearance to land there. Until you hear the words cleared for the approach or cleared to land you're not supposed to.
 
snoboy said:
I'm cleared to an airport when I get my IFR clearance but that doesn't mean I have a clearance to land there. Until you hear the words cleared for the approach or cleared to land you're not supposed to.
Click to expand...
That's true except for lost comm, where you'll never hear those words but you are required by regulation and expected by ATC to fly an approach and land. ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
That's true except for lost comm, where you'll never hear those words but you are required by regulation and expected by ATC to fly an approach and land. ;)
Click to expand...

All takeoffs are optional. Landing is mandatory.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top