Cleared Direct - lost Comms

[Jaybird180]

On an IFR flight plan, the pilot requests an amended clearance direct destination, which is granted by ATC. The direct route will take the airplane through restricted airspace, (which the pilot didn't realize at the time). It's a long leg and comms are lost. Is the pilot expected to use own nav to circumnavigate the restricted airspace or continue on direct heading?

 

[poadeleted20]

The pilot is expected to follow the route of flight in the last clearance obtained. See 91.185(c)(1)(i).

(c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if paragraph (b) of this section cannot be complied with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the following:
(1) Route.
(i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;

The controller should not have issued that direct clearance through that R-area unless the controller knew the R-area was cold. If the pilot has reason to believe the R-area is hot at the cleared altitude, then the pilot should not have accepted the clearance in the first place without questioning it. Otherwise, if the controller later realizes s/he goofed, it falls on the controller to clear the route assigned, including shutting down the activities in the R-area. Of course, that does not stop the pilot from exercising his/her 91.3(b) emergency authority if s/he thinks s/he is about to enter an active R-area, but the basic regulation is clear about what the pilot is supposed to do.

 

[Jaybird180]

Is your answer the same if the airspace is P-40 for example?

 

[Ted]

The pilot is expected to follow the route of flight in the last clearance obtained. See 91.185(c)(1)(i).

The controller should not have issued that direct clearance through that R-area unless the controller knew the R-area was cold. If the pilot has reason to believe the R-area is hot at the cleared altitude, then the pilot should not have accepted the clearance in the first place without questioning it. Otherwise, if the controller later realizes s/he goofed, it falls on the controller to clear the route assigned, including shutting down the activities in the R-area. Of course, that does not stop the pilot from exercising his/her 91.3(b) emergency authority if s/he thinks s/he is about to enter an active R-area, but the basic regulation is clear about what the pilot is supposed to do.

The practical side of this is that clearances are given and accepted all the time that may penetrate restricted airspace. I'll give an example: on a routine flight I made from KIPT to KUZA, the direct route would take me through the SFRA and also through the Charlotte Bravo. I gave up on filing the route I knew I would ultimately get because when I did that, they would then try to send me around the east side of the SFRA consistently, which would add about 100 nm to my route and create more arguing with ATC. No thanks. I just filed direct and got direct every time from NY Center when I departed. I also knew that somewhere talking to Harrisburg Approach I would end up getting SCAPE-MRB-HGR (or maybe it was HGR then MRB, I forget now) then direct, followed by radar vectors around the CLT bravo in. The initial direct clearance took me close to P-40 and also a couple of other little restricted areas.

From a practical perspective, I would likely have gone back to IPT if I had a lost comms issue that early on since I wouldn't have wanted to bother getting the plane fixed in South Carolina and also wouldn't have wanted to try to complete the rest of the dog flight without comms. But if I had decided I wanted to continue to my destination, I would have avoided the restricted areas and ended up doing the clearance I knew I would have gotten anyway.

 

[Jaybird180]

The practical side of this is that clearances are given and accepted all the time that may penetrate restricted airspace. I'll give an example: on a routine flight I made from KIPT to KUZA, the direct route would take me through the SFRA and also through the Charlotte Bravo. I gave up on filing the route I knew I would ultimately get because when I did that, they would then try to send me around the east side of the SFRA consistently, which would add about 100 nm to my route and create more arguing with ATC. No thanks. I just filed direct and got direct every time from NY Center when I departed. I also knew that somewhere talking to Harrisburg Approach I would end up getting SCAPE-MRB-HGR (or maybe it was HGR then MRB, I forget now) then direct, followed by radar vectors around the CLT bravo in. The initial direct clearance took me close to P-40 and also a couple of other little restricted areas.

From a practical perspective, I would likely have gone back to IPT if I had a lost comms issue that early on since I wouldn't have wanted to bother getting the plane fixed in South Carolina and also wouldn't have wanted to try to complete the rest of the dog flight without comms. But if I had decided I wanted to continue to my destination, I would have avoided the restricted areas and ended up doing the clearance I knew I would have gotten anyway.

Attached is your route. Direct doesn't take you through the SFRA unless you started at a point much further to the east.

Can you return to airport of origin under lost comms? It's not a 7700.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is your answer the same if the airspace is P-40 for example?

Yes. ATC should not give you a clearance that will go through P-40. If they do, and you see it, don't accept the clearance. If you both screw up and you don't see it until after you lose comm, 91.3(b) applies. And if you still don't see it and you get shot down, your family can always sue under the FTCA.

 

[poadeleted20]

The practical side of this is that clearances are given and accepted all the time that may penetrate restricted airspace. I'll give an example: on a routine flight I made from KIPT to KUZA, the direct route would take me through the SFRA and also through the Charlotte Bravo.

Neither the SFRA nor Class B airspace are "restricted airspace." That term is specifically defined, and does not include either one. Further, an IFR clearance constitutes approval to go through both.

 

[flyingron]

SFRA lost comm rules are spelled out:
VFR - Get the hell out of the airspace by the most expeditious route.
IFR - Follow the AIM procedures (i.e., nothing different about the SFRA).

 

[Palmpilot]

Attached is your route. Direct doesn't take you through the SFRA unless you started at a point much further to the east.

Can you return to airport of origin under lost comms? It's not a 7700.

According to AIM 6-4-1, whether a lost comm situation constitutes an emergency is for the pilot to determine. Furthermore, under the P/CG definition of urgency, an emergency can exist if the pilot is "concerned" about safety.

 

[roncachamp]

Can you return to airport of origin under lost comms? It's not a 7700.

Sez who?

 

[flyingron]

Yep, it would also depend on what the reason for the lost comm. Most situations that would cause lost comm also would severely compromise other flight aspects (such as navigation).

 

[AdamZ]

I learned Avenue F

Assigned
Vectored
Expected
Filed

 

[poadeleted20]

I learned Avenue F

Assigned
Vectored
Expected
Filed

Just remember that there must be a connection which allows a continuous route. Yesterday I filed from KSBY to KFME via OTT MITCH D-> KFME to avoid the Presidential TFR over Annapolis Once in the air, Patuxent gave me direct GRACO, and then "expect further routing after GRACO from Potomac." GRACO wasn't on my original clearance or my filed route, and going GRACO direct KFME (neither assigned, expected nor filed) would send me through the middle of the 10-ring of the TFR. That left me hanging out farther than I like. I looked at my chart, and told them that if I lost comm, I'd go GRACO V268 BAL direct KFME (which would avoid the 10-ring). They acknowledged that, so if I did lose comm (and it was in the goo most of the way making the 91.185(b) "stay VFR and land VFR" a non-starter), we all knew where I would go.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Just remember that there must be a connection which allows a continuous route. Yesterday I filed from KSBY to KFME via OTT MITCH D-> KFME to avoid the Presidential TFR over Annapolis Once in the air, Patuxent gave me direct GRACO, and then "expect further routing after GRACO from Potomac." GRACO wasn't on my original clearance or my filed route, and going GRACO direct KFME (neither assigned, expected nor filed) would send me through the middle of the 10-ring of the TFR. That left me hanging out farther than I like. I looked at my chart, and told them that if I lost comm, I'd go GRACO V268 BAL direct KFME (which would avoid the 10-ring). They acknowledged that, so if I did lose comm (and it was in the goo most of the way making the 91.185(b) "stay VFR and land VFR" a non-starter), we all knew where I would go.

Heard you going through Baltimore. That was my unprofessional "Hi Ron."

 

[poadeleted20]

Heard you going through Baltimore. That was my unprofessional "Hi Ron."

Sorry -- didn't hear it.

 

[35 AoA]

#1 Squawk

#2 If you come trundling through Restricted airspace squawking nordo/lost comms, everyone is going to know about it, and they will get people out of the way.....I almost guarantee that much

#3 I don't know what kind of distance this flight involves, but there aren't too many times when I have been in prevailing IMC for more than 100 miles or so. That is something to think about, and is really the first procedure to any lost comm scenario. If you can get VMC, do it, and find somewhere to land. Certainly there are times when large areas of the country are IMC, but more often than not, you will probably break out sooner or later. Just a thought

 

[Ted]

Attached is your route. Direct doesn't take you through the SFRA unless you started at a point much further to the east.

Can you return to airport of origin under lost comms? It's not a 7700.

Proof that it's been a while since I've done the route. But it does take me through that unfavorable area.

As for returning under lost comms, again, this is the practical side of it. For one, if I've just departed home and my comms are busted, why am I going to fly 450 nm so I can be stuck and try to repair them somewhere else? That's a 91.3 application, and I'll deal with it once I'm on the ground.

The one time I did have a total electrical failure/lost comms, I was able to get ahold of ATC eventually, canceled IFR, and told them I was going to divert and fly back to my home base. The guy gave me a phone number to call, the reason being that he wanted to make sure I got back safely. I called him when I was on the ground and thanked him for his help.

Yes. ATC should not give you a clearance that will go through P-40. If they do, and you see it, don't accept the clearance. If you both screw up and you don't see it until after you lose comm, 91.3(b) applies. And if you still don't see it and you get shot down, your family can always sue under the FTCA.

So you're telling me that you've never been given a clearance at your origin that won't take you through an area that you shouldn't fly through? That would be quite surprising given that I received them regularly flying in the northeast.

Neither the SFRA nor Class B airspace are "restricted airspace." That term is specifically defined, and does not include either one. Further, an IFR clearance constitutes approval to go through both.

True on the SFRA, but from a practical perspective they don't want you flying through it unless it's where you're landing, and given the heightened security I can imagine that a "lost comms" in the SFRA wouldn't end well. Either way, going over the President's hideaway isn't kosher, either.

As I said, the practical side of it is you can get clearances that will take you through areas that they won't let you fly normally.

 

[gismo]

As I said, the practical side of it is you can get clearances that will take you through areas that they won't let you fly normally.

I file and fly direct a lot (thanks mid country ATC!) and there's really no way to determine if my route will take me through a prohibited airspace or a hot restricted area etc. because as soon as I get a vector (typically part of my departure clearance) my actual route becomes different than anything I filed or plotted on a chart.

 

[35 AoA]

I file and fly direct a lot (thanks mid country ATC!) and there's really no way to determine if my route will take me through a prohibited airspace or a hot restricted area etc. because as soon as I get a vector (typically part of my departure clearance) my actual route becomes different than anything I filed or plotted on a chart.

Agreed. I have gone -D-> many a time from coast to coast with one gas stop en route. Never have looked if said route took me through any sort of SUA. I guess the real aviator would know that kind of stuff, but to be honest, if they clear me, I'm going there.

 

[Ted]

I file and fly direct a lot (thanks mid country ATC!) and there's really no way to determine if my route will take me through a prohibited airspace or a hot restricted area etc. because as soon as I get a vector (typically part of my departure clearance) my actual route becomes different than anything I filed or plotted on a chart.

Exactly. The reality is my standard filing is D-> unless I'm going someplace where I know what the routing will be. I go to a number of different airports with a number of different areas along the route. Plus, with random TFRs and stuff popping up at the drop of a hat these days...

 

[gismo]

Exactly. The reality is my standard filing is D-> unless I'm going someplace where I know what the routing will be. I go to a number of different airports with a number of different areas along the route. Plus, with random TFRs and stuff popping up at the drop of a hat these days...

That whole lost comm thing was dreamed up long before there was such a thing as a TFR, prohibited/restricted airspace, TCAs, radar, transponders, GPS, VORs or TCAS and the only things a NORDO airplane had to avoid were other airplanes, terrain and a few buildings over 200 ft high. For reasons that escape me, the official lost comm rules haven't changed while the environment they're used in is completely different.

 

[Ted]

That whole lost comm thing was dreamed up long before there was such a thing as a TFR, prohibited/restricted airspace, TCAs, radar, transponders, GPS, VORs or TCAS and the only things a NORDO airplane had to avoid were other airplanes, terrain and a few buildings over 200 ft high. For reasons that escape me, the official lost comm rules haven't changed while the environment they're used in is completely different.

That makes sense. That's why I figure the practical side of it is going to be different, at least for me, than the written side.

 

[Jim_R]

According to AIM 6-4-1, whether a lost comm situation constitutes an emergency is for the pilot to determine. Furthermore, under the P/CG definition of urgency, an emergency can exist if the pilot is "concerned" about safety.

I had a similar situation recently. Lost the field wire on the alternator en route, but didn't realize it until the radios started winking out. Before I knew it, I was lost comms. I had a backup handheld, but while I could hear ATC I couldn't contact them.

If I could, I would have simply canceled IFR and returned to my home drome.

Since I couldn't do that, but didn't want to complete the remaining 80% of the flight (and end up at a destination where I might be stranded--at the time, I didn't know what the root problem was), I chose to "declare an emergency" and divert to a nearby airport.

I chose the nearby airport rather than my home drome because I didn't want to be across the table from an FAA guy asking me, "So, it was a big enough of an emergency to deviate from the regs, but not a big enough emergency to terminate the flight as expeditiously as possible? Exactly how do you define an emergency, Mr. Pilot?"