Class Bravo Question

[numl0ck]

Newly minted pilot here...I am planning on doing a $100 hamburger run this weekend from WST to OWD (Norwood) and this will be my first time into Bravo airspace.. OWD is a class Delta under the Class Bravo of BOS. My plan of action is to depart WST and get flight following from PVD like I've done dozens of time before. I'm assume they will hand me off to BOS Approach when the time is right.

Questions: 1. If/when PVD hands me off to BOS, I'm assuming that I will be cleared into Bravo unless told otherwise or will the explicitly tell me so? If not I can descend and stay under the outer shelf until the class Delta of OWD. When I call up BOS after the frequency change (assuming PVD hands me off) what should I say? "Boston approach, 5811E level at 3500ft requesting entrance into Bravo airspace"?

2. Will BOS tell me when to contact OWD tower or should I plan to terminate flight services on my own when I feel the time is right?

3. Lastly, If PVD is unable to hand me off and dumps me back into the world of squawking 1200, on the sectional there is a box that says planes requesting transition to OWD contact Boston approach on XXX.XX and I'll stay below 3000ft. That's my backup plan.

Hopefully I'm not overthinking this. Thanks for the help.

 

[rbridges]

since you're going into class B to a class D airport, they will hand you off. Get flight following, and they'll take care of you. they'll give you any instructions for routing or altitude that you need to know.

if OWD is underneath the umbrella of class B, ATC may have you reduce your altitude to stay clear. That's usually what happens for us around Atlanta. Either that, or they vector us around. They don't like us popping into class B.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

Steve,

You are not cleared into the class B airspace until you hear the magic "cleared to enter the class B" assume nothing.

You are correct, ask for an entry into the class B and always have a backup plan if they say no.

John

Newly minted pilot here...I am planning on doing a $100 hamburger run this weekend from WST to OWD (Norwood) and this will be my first time into Bravo airspace.. OWD is a class Delta under the Class Bravo of BOS. My plan of action is to depart WST and get flight following from PVD like I've done dozens of time before. I'm assume they will hand me off to BOS Approach when the time is right.

Questions: 1. If/when PVD hands me off to BOS, I'm assuming that I will be cleared into Bravo unless told otherwise or will the explicitly tell me so? If not I can descend and stay under the outer shelf until the class Delta of OWD. When I call up BOS after the frequency change (assuming PVD hands me off) what should I say? "Boston approach, 5811E level at 3500ft requesting entrance into Bravo airspace"?

2. Will BOS tell me when to contact OWD tower or should I plan to terminate flight services on my own when I feel the time is right?

3. Lastly, If PVD is unable to hand me off and dumps me back into the world of squawking 1200, on the sectional there is a box that says planes requesting transition to OWD contact Boston approach on XXX.XX and I'll stay below 3000ft. That's my backup plan.

Hopefully I'm not overthinking this. Thanks for the help.

 

[flyingron]

Coming that way, you'll unlikely be granted entrance to the class B, though they'll nearly always give you flight following. If you're already in radar contact with them, you can just ask your "request class B clearance" you don't need to repeat position, altitude, and destination if you're already in contact with them. If you aren't, you'll just make that request on your call up:

Boston Approach, Navion 5327K 30 SE of Norwood 3500 request entry into class B landing NORWOOD.'

You've got things pretty much right otherwise. If you are talking to approach, they will take care of telling you when to switch to tower. You don't need to worry about canceling services (if I was going into a non-towered field, I'd let them know when I had the field in site, and they usually give a final traffic report and turn you lose at that time).

 

[poadeleted20]

Questions: 1. If/when PVD hands me off to BOS, I'm assuming that I will be cleared into Bravo unless told otherwise or will the explicitly tell me so?

No -- the opposite is true. You must have explicit clearance or you are NOT cleared into the B-space.

If not I can descend and stay under the outer shelf until the class Delta of OWD. When I call up BOS after the frequency change (assuming PVD hands me off) what should I say? "Boston approach, 5811E level at 3500ft requesting entrance into Bravo airspace"?

That should work.

2. Will BOS tell me when to contact OWD tower or should I plan to terminate flight services on my own when I feel the time is right?

Boston Approach should either hand you to the tower or tell you when to switch on your own.

3. Lastly, If PVD is unable to hand me off and dumps me back into the world of squawking 1200, on the sectional there is a box that says planes requesting transition to OWD contact Boston approach on XXX.XX and I'll stay below 3000ft. That's my backup plan.

Good plan.

All that said, arriving from the southwest, odds are you'd want to be below 3000 by the time you reach the B-space outer ring if you're planning to land at OWD as the outer ring is only 8 miles from OWD. It's very likely Boston Approach will, on initial contact, tell you to remain below the Bravo and proceed towards Norwood, and then cut you loose to Norwood Tower 8-10 miles fro OWD.

Hopefully I'm not overthinking this.

Nope. Good to ask before you do.

Thanks for the help.

Quite welcome.

 

[Fearless Tower]

All that said, arriving from the southwest, odds are you'd want to be below 3000 by the time you reach the B-space outer ring if you're planning to land at OWD as the outer ring is only 8 miles from OWD. It's very likely Boston Approach will, on initial contact, tell you to remain below the Bravo and proceed towards Norwood, and then cut you loose to Norwood Tower 8-10 miles fro OWD.

This is very true.

For one, BOS Approach typically is not big on clearing VFR folks through the Bravo unless there is a good reason (like transiting from North to South or vice versa. They are very good with Flight Following, but unless you are wanting to transition over Logan above 4500, then they will more often than not tell you to remain clear of the class Bravo.

Plus, like Ron said, coming from the direction you are, there really isn't any reason for you to go into the Bravo in order to land at OWD. If OWD is your destination, you should be at or below 2500 before you even get to the outer limit of the Class B.

Finally, be prepared to go direct from Providence Approach to OWD tower. Depending on controller workload, PVD may not be able to hand you off to BOS approach (not uncommon in that neck of the woods) which means that as you transition from Providence Approach to Boston airspace, you may need to call up BOS approach and make a brand new request all over again, only to cancel FF and shift over to Tower after just a few minutes. Depending on when Providence cuts you loose, it may be alot simpler to pick up the ATIS and then contact OWD tower without ever talking to Boston. Personally, that is what I would do (I used to occasionally fly from UUU to OWD and never got any higher than 2500 on that route).

 

[numl0ck]

Thanks guys. The info has been very helpful.

After reading the replies, I may just stay at 3000 or less to avoid the airspace alltogether and pickup FF for as long as I can.

 

[poadeleted20]

After reading the replies, I may just stay at 3000 or less to avoid the airspace alltogether and pickup FF for as long as I can.

3000 is the base of the B-space -- if you're not cleared into the B-space, be at 2900 or less. :wink2:

 

[cirrusmx]

3000 is the base of the B-space -- if you're not cleared into the B-space, be at 2900 or less. :wink2:

It only takes an uncalibrated altimeter or incorrect baro setting to bust altitude without knowing. Having a buffer is smart.

 

[Sac Arrow]

No kidding. I like a 300 foot buffer myself.

(Yeah I know I suck....)

 

[steingar]

I go from a delta to a delta within a Bravo envelope all the time. I usually don't talk to anyone but the deltas. You can remain clear of the controlled airspace and keep your transponder on VFR. The problem with asking for a clearance from a Bravo is they can send you a long way out of your way. They did that to yours truly once too often.

 

[numl0ck]

3000 is the base of the B-space -- if you're not cleared into the B-space, be at 2900 or less. :wink2:

Very true. That's what I meant when I typed it, I should have been more clear. I don't think I'd bump around at 2999 just to see how close to the edge I can get.

 

[pcorman]

This is an area of ambiguity but worth mentioning. Even though you are talking to approach and already cleared/flying in Class B, it is still the PIC responsibility not to enter a Class D without establishing 2-way comm first. Ask to be handed off to tower before entering. This happened to a pilot in KPHX Class B.

 

[poadeleted20]

This is an area of ambiguity but worth mentioning. Even though you are talking to approach and already cleared/flying in Class B, it is still the PIC responsibility not to enter a Class D without establishing 2-way comm first. Ask to be handed off to tower before entering. This happened to a pilot in KPHX Class B.

It is the B-space radar controller's responsibility to coordinate or hand you off before you enter the tower's D-space. The reverse, however, is not true.

 

[numl0ck]

Thanks for all the replies. I was much more at ease having asked this question ahead of time. The flight went without a hitch. Lots of radio work and frequency changes, it impressed my passenger.

Here's to stretching my wings and flying into new airspace!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[EppyGA]

Thanks for all the replies. I was much more at ease having asked this question ahead of time. The flight went without a hitch. Lots of radio work and frequency changes, it impressed my passenger.

Here's to stretching my wings and flying into new airspace!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Now you're ready to tackle that Instrument rating.

 

[rbridges]

Thanks for all the replies. I was much more at ease having asked this question ahead of time. The flight went without a hitch. Lots of radio work and frequency changes, it impressed my passenger.

Here's to stretching my wings and flying into new airspace!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

much better than being "that guy" that flew into Class B without clearance. Guy at the local airport did that a few years ago, and he got a call from the FAA. He ended up having to get a few hours of remedial ground school from a CFI.

 

[DogDaddy]

Glad it went well. Remember, the controller might vector you into the Class B airspace, but if he has not said specifically that you are 'cleared into Class Bravo" you should make him say it. (Everything's recorded; there'll be no record of you being cleared in if there's a problem later.) Or sometimes I get cleared in but the clearance is so long, by the time I write it all down I don't remember if he said that or not. So I just say, "Please verify N12345 cleared into Class Bravo" and he will reply, "N12345 cleared into Class Bravo." Then I know for sure it's been recorded.

 

[SkyHog]

This is an area of ambiguity but worth mentioning. Even though you are talking to approach and already cleared/flying in Class B, it is still the PIC responsibility not to enter a Class D without establishing 2-way comm first. Ask to be handed off to tower before entering. This happened to a pilot in KPHX Class B.

That's not true. You have established two way communications with Boston Approach already, and they are the ones working approach for Norwood (and any other Class D under the Class B that I know of) - therefore, you aren't busting D if you're talking to Boston Approach.

 

[douglas393]

I do not know if this is saying the obvious but class delta and charlie can also tell you not to enter their airspace. So it is possible to have established two way communication with them and still not be able to enter.

Also again I may be stating the obvious, but don't they have to identify you by full call sign and establish two way communication before you can enter. For example if they say N1234 stand by, you have not established two way communication and cannot yet enter.

Doug

 

[ja_user]

I do not know if this is saying the obvious but class delta and charlie can also tell you not to enter their airspace. So it is possible to have established two way communication with them and still not be able to enter.

Also again I may be stating the obvious, but don't they have to identify you by full call sign and establish two way communication before you can enter. For example if they say N1234 stand by, you have not established two way communication and cannot yet enter.

Doug

No clearance is required to enter C or D, only two way communication.

Now, you generally do want to do what they ask.. But you don't have to.. I wouldn't want to have an accident, and have ignored their instructions completely though...

 

[SkyHog]

No clearance is required to enter C or D, only two way communication.

Now, you generally do want to do what they ask.. But you don't have to.. I wouldn't want to have an accident, and have ignored their instructions completely though...

Not entirely true - if you are issued a command by ATC, you are bound to follow it unless you are exercising your 91.3 authority to deviate for emergency/safety related reasons.

Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

 

[ja_user]

Not entirely true - if you are issued a command by ATC, you are bound to follow it unless you are exercising your 91.3 authority to deviate for emergency/safety related reasons.

Sure, I could have said it clearer I guess.

I would not hesitate to cut a corner of class C or D with just two way communication though...

 

[douglas393]

No clearance is required to enter C or D, only two way communication.

Now, you generally do want to do what they ask.. But you don't have to.. I wouldn't want to have an accident, and have ignored their instructions completely though...

I believe you are correct that no clearance is necessary to enter class C or D, just the establishment of two way communication, however I do not believe the opposite is true. I believe if they tell you specifically not to enter, standby, or do not acknowledge you by atleast full call sign, or some other nonambiguous identifying information, you have not established two way communication and cannot enter.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I do not know if this is saying the obvious but class delta and charlie can also tell you not to enter their airspace. So it is possible to have established two way communication with them and still not be able to enter.

Also again I may be stating the obvious, but don't they have to identify you by full call sign and establish two way communication before you can enter. For example if they say N1234 stand by, you have not established two way communication and cannot yet enter.

Doug

That is incorrect. By saying N1234A that's acknowledging that they know you're there and implicitly allowing you to enter the D or C, unless they say "Remain clear of Chandler's class Delta." If they say "Aircraft calling Chandler tower standby." you are NOT cleared in and must remain outside until they contact you. So if they say your N number for D or C, you're good. If not, time for some 360's.

 

[douglas393]

That is incorrect. By saying N1234A that's acknowledging that they know you're there and implicitly allowing you to enter the D or C, unless they say "Remain clear of Chandler's class Delta." If they say "Aircraft calling Chandler tower standby." you are NOT cleared in and must remain outside until they contact you. So if they say your N number for D or C, you're good. If not, time for some 360's.

True, and stand corrected. I guess I should have been clearer but if my call sign is N1234A and they say N1234 and leave out the A I am still not cleared because N1234 may not be me. Then the question begs what do you do as this may be a mistake, which is sort of what I meant by full call sign. So for example if I am Cessna 182 N1234A, and they say Cessna 182 34A standby is that me or someone else. My answer would be to ask for clarification before I enter, the worse that could happen to me in that case would be a controller being upset with me.

 

[Z06_Mir]

If he said Cessna 34A standby I'd enter. The chances of someone else with the last 3 the same as you AND the same type are next to nothing. I actually found a huge list of different Cessna N numbers and they go in order for the most part.. it's a little weird. Mine was in a long list of several single Cessna types from a 150 to a P210.

If he said Cessna calling tower standby I wouldn't enter because it is plausable that there is more than once Cessna.

 

[douglas393]

If he said Cessna 34A standby I'd enter. The chances of someone else with the last 3 the same as you AND the same type are next to nothing. I actually found a huge list of different Cessna N numbers and they go in order for the most part.. it's a little weird. Mine was in a long list of several single Cessna types from a 150 to a P210.

If he said Cessna calling tower standby I wouldn't enter because it is plausable that there is more than once Cessna.

I actually have had it happen to me on an IFR flight once. There is also at least one accident that occured because of two planes with similar call signs being confused. I do not remember the details anymore however. I do not think you line of thought is wrong, but I am not sure my way is wrong either.

 

[poadeleted20]

I do not know if this is saying the obvious but class delta and charlie can also tell you not to enter their airspace. So it is possible to have established two way communication with them and still not be able to enter.

Correct.

Also again I may be stating the obvious, but don't they have to identify you by full call sign and establish two way communication before you can enter. For example if they say N1234 stand by, you have not established two way communication and cannot yet enter.

No -- if they just say "N1234, stand by," you are legal to enter C/D. Once they use your call sign, you may enter C/D airspace unless they instruct otherwise. "Stand by" only means "shut up and listen -- I'll get back to you." AIM Section 3-2-4c3:

NOTE-
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, “(aircraft callsign) standby,” radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class C airspace

OTOH, if they say, "aircraft calling Bongo Approach, stand by," or "N1234, remain clear of Class Charlie airspace," or "aircraft calling Bongo Approach, remain clear of Class Charlie airspace," then you must stay out. Same is true for Delta.

As for the issue of similar sounding call signs, if the controller has them on his/her frequency, s/he is required to:

Notify each pilot concerned when communicating with aircraft having similar sounding identifications.
EXAMPLE-
“United Thirty-one United, Miami Center, U.S. Air Thirty-one is also on this frequency, acknowledge.”

“U.S. Air Thirty-one U.S. Air, Miami Center, United Thirty-one is also on this frequency, acknowledge.”

...and then use the full call signs for both. See FAA Order 7110.65, Sections 2-4-15 and 2-4-20.

 

[SkyHog]

Correct.

No -- if they just say "N1234, stand by," you are legal to enter C/D. Once they use your call sign, you may enter C/D airspace unless they instruct otherwise. "Stand by" only means "shut up and listen -- I'll get back to you." AIM Section 3-2-4c3:
OTOH, if they say, "aircraft calling Bongo Approach, stand by," or "N1234, remain clear of Class Charlie airspace," or "aircraft calling Bongo Approach, remain clear of Class Charlie airspace," then you must stay out. Same is true for Delta.

As for the issue of similar sounding call signs, if the controller has them on his/her frequency, s/he is required to:
...and then use the full call signs for both. See FAA Order 7110.65, Sections 2-4-15 and 2-4-20.

I think the point is (and a question I don't know the answer to, but I bet you do), is if they say N1234, but your call sign is N1234A, is that sufficient to enter?

 

[poadeleted20]

I think the point is (and a question I don't know the answer to, but I bet you do), is if they say N1234, but your call sign is N1234A, is that sufficient to enter?

If your call sign is N1234A and they say "N1234, stand by," then they have not used your call sign, and confirmation is necessary before entering -- "Bongo Approach, November 1234 Alpha [with that vocal emphasis], was that last transmission for me?" That should elicit either "Affirmative" or, if there really is also a N1234 on freq, the similar-sounding call sign speech mentioned above followed by the controller's instruction to you. OTOH, the abbreviation of the last three (as opposed to the first four) is acceptable once the controller uses it (see AIM 4-2-4a2), so if they responded "three four alpha, stand by," I'd continue in.