Class B clearance

[Aztec Driver]

I am trying to find a reference for this scenario.

You are on an IFR flight out of a Class B Airport. You received your clearance and have departed. To save yourself from being vectored the opposite way of your destination, you cancel IFR after climbing to 1000'agl.

Do you now need a Class B clearance? I am attempting to supply a reference to a friend of mine.

Bryon

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I am trying to find a reference for this scenario.

You are on an IFR flight out of a Class B Airport. You received your clearance and have departed. To save yourself from being vectored the opposite way of your destination, you cancel IFR after climbing to 1000'agl.

Do you now need a Class B clearance? I am attempting to supply a reference to a friend of mine.

Bryon

No. The clearance into the Class B was contained within the IFR clearance under which you departed.

What you are looking for is the answer to the question: "Can ATC cancel a Class Bravo clearance once you are inside?" The answer is yes, but only by vectoring you out of the airspace and then either dumping you ("squawk 1-2-0-0, frequency change approved") or canceling your clearance ("remain clear of Class Bravo"). If you are in the airspace you remain cleared until asked to leave. However, if you exit (i.e. your route or altitude takes you outside) then you are gone and need permission to return. The obvious trap would be the pilot who exits underneath the wedding cake layers only to stumble back inside the Bravo space without another clearance. Frankly, I don't see ATC letting that happen. I would expect ATC to issue one of the above instructions if they wished the pilot to remain clear.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Ed,

This was my answer to him as well, but he was still unsure and wanted some reference, which I failed to find. He did this out of Dulles, whereupon they told him "Cancellation received, cleared into class Bravo, remain on squawk." He took that to mean that had he not had the separate Class Bravo clearance, he might have gotten busted.


So Ed, did you head over to "Smoketwon International" for the EAA Pancake breakfast? Man there were a lot of people there.

Bryon

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Bryon:

The manner in which you quote the clearance is good for everyone. If you're on an IFR flight plan and cancel in the Class B area, it's great that the controller states you are cleared in the Class B. Makes it a no brainer. If class B clearance isn't stated, things become questionable. Ed is certainly correct in that the IFR clearance covered your friend when he departed, but he cancelled that. More tenuous would have been if the controller had said something to the effect of " IFR flight plan terminated, squawk VFR".

A suggestion could be to request cancelation if IFR and clearance to remain in Class B until departure. Doesn't leave any question.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Ed,

This was my answer to him as well, but he was still unsure and wanted some reference, which I failed to find. He did this out of Dulles, whereupon they told him "Cancellation received, cleared into class Bravo, remain on squawk." He took that to mean that had he not had the separate Class Bravo clearance, he might have gotten busted.

The controller's subsequent Class B clearance was redundant. From the FAR (emphasis added):

§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.


IOW, the clearance is required to enter. Your friend complied with this requirement (via the IFR clearance), ergo he is good to go.

So Ed, did you head over to "Smoketwon International" for the EAA Pancake breakfast? Man there were a lot of people there.

No, I didn't make it. Actually, I didn't remember it or I might have made the effort to go out there yesterday morning, but it would have been "iffy" with the jet lag and sleep deprivation.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Ed is certainly correct in that the IFR clearance covered your friend when he departed, but he cancelled that.

Dave

Are you saying that he no longer has the clearance for flying in Class B? If so, that would mean he would need an additional clearance. Ed's reference for "entering" seems reasonable. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any exact situation reference at all.

Bryon

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Your friend did have clearance as Ed stated. I made the suggestions I did to eliminate any confusion. As you are aware, Class B is tiered like an upside down layer cake. As one heads out of it, it may not go to the surface. If your friend was still in the Class B when he cancelled, he was cleared. If he was out of it, it would be possible for him to cancel and lose that clearance, then fly back into the Class B buy climbing or flying into an area that went to the surface. If he was still in the Class B, he would keep his squawk code and still talk to center. If he was not in it, Center would tell him to squawk VFR and frequency change was approved unless he was flight following.

I just said what I did to avoid any problem that could arise. Since I'm a former military guy, redundancy doesn't bother me much if it could avoid a possible problem. There are many cases where someone was under the Class B and either flew into an area that went to the surface or climbed into it and created a problem. If the frequency isn't congested, clarification doesn't hurt anything, especially if your friend wasn't highly familiar with the area and Class B structure.

Best,

Dave

 

[poadeleted20]

There is some grayness in this. If you cancel IFR while in B-space, your IFR clearance is cancelled, too, and the controller must give you a new VFR B-space clearance for route and altitude. While the controller MAY give you what you want, you may also get something like, "Maintain 1500 and depart the Bravo airspace on a heading of [something other than the direction in which you want to go]" followed upon crossing out of the B-space by "Radar service terminated, maintain VFR, remain clear of Bravo airspace, squawk 1200, frequencey change approved." In such a case, you have little choice but to do what he says.

My recommendation in this sort of case is to negotiate an acceptable B-space VFR clearance before cancelling IFR, e.g., "Approach, 2RL, if I can get VFR through the Bravo space direct XYZ at 4500, I can cancel IFR." If he says, "Unable that VFR routing," my response is, "Then I'll remain IFR."

 

[Aztec Driver]

There is some grayness in this. If you cancel IFR while in B-space, your IFR clearance is cancelled, too, and the controller must give you a new VFR B-space clearance for route and altitude. While the controller MAY give you what you want, you may also get something like, "Maintain 1500 and depart the Bravo airspace on a heading of [something other than the direction in which you want to go]" followed upon crossing out of the B-space by "Radar service terminated, maintain VFR, remain clear of Bravo airspace, squawk 1200, frequencey change approved." In such a case, you have little choice but to do what he says.

What would really be the benefit of doing this? Is it really plausible that ATC will allow you to go where YOU want to go in their B-space just because you are VFR? They are still in control of your direction and altitude. A reasonable assumption would be that they have you that way for separation of other aircraft and would likely still need that separation even if you were VFR.

Bryon

 

[poadeleted20]

What would really be the benefit of doing this? Is it really plausible that ATC will allow you to go where YOU want to go in their B-space just because you are VFR? They are still in control of your direction and altitude. A reasonable assumption would be that they have you that way for separation of other aircraft and would likely still need that separation even if you were VFR.

There is no requirement that the controller keep you on the original IFR route. The controller has no particular obligation to VFR aircraft other than to to provide separation while they're in the B-space, and has the option to get you out of his hair the fastest and easiest (for him) way he can. Thus, while he must fit you into the traffic flow when you're IFR, he may spit you out of the system if you're VFR. That's why it's a good idea to ask about VFR routing before canceling IFR and then getting sent out of the B-space via a route or at an altitude which doesn't fit with your plans.

Example -- typical day with light bumpiness below the haze level at, say, 3000 feet. You're headed west and given "maintain 3 expect 6 after 10." At 1000 feet, you cancel IFR, and despite your request for 4500, you are told to maintain 1500, clear the B-space, and remain clear thereafter below the 3000-foot shelf. No fun, that.

 

[wsuffa]

Here's my example.

I was flying to Blue Ash airport, which is under the NE corner of the 5000' shelf of the Cincinnati Class B. I was IFR, and approaching from the southwest. Cincy will generally not allow you in their Class B, and if they do, it's always at the bottom of the Bravo. Lunken in on the SE corner, so they want to keep you clear of that, too. So the normal IFR routing is to bring you up close to the Class B, take you down to 2500-3000, and take you out almost to the York VOR before allowing you back in. It is a 50+ mile detour.

You COULD cancel at Louisville and traverse VFR over the top at 11,500 (a lot of folks do that), but don't talk to ATC, because if you're on flight following, they'll still vector you way clear and descend you early.

The solution last trip was a little negotiation with Cincy approach. I asked him if he was sending me out almost to York, he replied yes. I then asked if I could get a better routing VFR. He said he could tighten up the routing. My next statement was I can cancel if you can give a Class Bravo clearance. He cleared me into the Bravo VFR, I canceled, and we cut 20 miles out of the 50 mile detour. It's better than nothing, and safer than going over the top without flight following.

I have zero confidence in the new routings through the Cincy Class B that AOPA is touting. There are already routes that ATC can use if they want to allow traffic through. I see all this effort being wasted when the local Tracon manger says "no GA in MY Class B"....

 

[Ed Guthrie]

There is some grayness in this. If you cancel IFR while in B-space, your IFR clearance is cancelled, too, and the controller must give you a new VFR B-space clearance for route and altitude.

Please provide a reference or both parts of this statement. IOW, your statement is incorrect on two counts. The aircraft had a clearance prior to entering which is all that is required by FAR. Canceling IFR does not rewrite history. Furthermore, there is no requirement for ATC to issue either route or altitude assignment for VFR aircraft within Class B so there is no requirement for ATC to issue the VFR clearance you suggest.

 

[RobertGerace]

Hmmmm...I heard a controller and a pilot arguing about this the other day on the radio. Except it was class-D. It seems that they guy took off IFR and cancelled in the D. The controller thought that the pilot left the airspace and came back in and was yelling at him. The pilot emphatically stated that he never left the D to begin with.

The controller said that's ok as long as you didn't leave, but I'm sure I saw you leave. The pilot said I'm watching on my GPS and I'm sure I didn't.

The controller dropped it and went on to work other traffic...

 

[wsuffa]

Hmmmm...I heard a controller and a pilot arguing about this the other day on the radio. Except it was class-D. It seems that they guy took off IFR and cancelled in the D. The controller thought that the pilot left the airspace and came back in and was yelling at him. The pilot emphatically stated that he never left the D to begin with.

The controller said that's ok as long as you didn't leave, but I'm sure I saw you leave. The pilot said I'm watching on my GPS and I'm sure I didn't.

The controller dropped it and went on to work other traffic...

Bob, a Class D doesn't require a clearance (except to takeoff and land). Only that communication be established & you follow controller instructions. IMHO, that controller was wrong....

 

[Gary Sortor]

As a practical matter, what is the likelihood that you would be better off canceling IFR in Class B space? In either IFR or VFR, you might be routed direct or, on the other hand, end up being vectored all over the place. I don't see the advantage.

 

[wsuffa]

As a practical matter, what is the likelihood that you would be better off canceling IFR in Class B space? In either IFR or VFR, you might be routed direct or, on the other hand, end up being vectored all over the place. I don't see the advantage.

Different separation requirements apply if you're VFR. The controller can bring you closer VFR than they usually can IFR.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Hmmmm...I heard a controller and a pilot arguing about this the other day on the radio. Except it was class-D. It seems that they guy took off IFR and cancelled in the D. The controller thought that the pilot left the airspace and came back in and was yelling at him. The pilot emphatically stated that he never left the D to begin with.

The controller said that's ok as long as you didn't leave, but I'm sure I saw you leave. The pilot said I'm watching on my GPS and I'm sure I didn't.

The controller dropped it and went on to work other traffic...

If the controller and the pilot were arguing, and if during the argument the controller was addressing the pilot by aircraft call sign then the pilot had indeed complied with the requirements to enter Class D airspace--as many times as he cared to do so.

 

[Greebo]

If the controller and the pilot were arguing, and if during the argument the controller was addressing the pilot by aircraft call sign then the pilot had indeed complied with the requirements to enter Class D airspace--as many times as he cared to do so.

Wouldn't that depend on whether or not the controller had said the magic words: "Squawk 1200, frequency change approved" to put an official end on their communication?

If pilot had heard above, and then came back into D, he would have done so without having re-established comm, correct?

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Wouldn't that depend on whether or not the controller had said the magic words: "Squawk 1200, frequency change approved" to put an official end on their communication?

If pilot had heard above, and then came back into D, he would have done so without having re-established comm, correct?

Correct. However, you rarely hear such a statement from tower. Usually you just fade into the sunset and are forgotten about (see AIM). I would speculate that the tower-pilot exchange posted earlier resulted when the tower controller thought the pilot had faded or would fade into the sunset but the pilot had other intentions. In that case the communications requirement is still good. IOW, the pilot complied with 91.129(c)(2), but the controller assumed otherwise:

(2) Departing flight. Each person—
(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class D airspace area;

So long as the pilot doesn't change COM frequency or otherwise tell the controller that the pilot is leaving frequency then the pilot complied with the above.

 

[Greebo]

I do not like "fading into the sunset", personally. Once I'm 10 miles or so out, if I haven't already been cut loose from a tower, I will call them up and request a freq change just to put a formal end on the transmission.

Establishing communications is a reasonably formal proceedure. In my opinion, terminating communications - at least in the air - should also be reasonably formal. (As opposed to on the ground where the last thing I usually hear is simply "taxi to parking and monitor ground" until I switch to unicom and call for fuel...)

 

[poadeleted20]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Levy
There is some grayness in this. If you cancel IFR while in B-space, your IFR clearance is cancelled, too, and the controller must give you a new VFR B-space clearance for route and altitude.

Please provide a reference or both parts of this statement. IOW, your statement is incorrect on two counts. The aircraft had a clearance prior to entering which is all that is required by FAR. Canceling IFR does not rewrite history. Furthermore, there is no requirement for ATC to issue either route or altitude assignment for VFR aircraft within Class B so there is no requirement for ATC to issue the VFR clearance you suggest.

Check the ATC Handbook, section 7-9 -- separation standards are different for VFR aircraft, so a new clearance is required. Note also that controllers are supposed to keep those aircraft clear of IFR departure/arrival routes. If you cancel IFR in B-space, you are going to get new routing and altitudes, and you can't insist on keeping the IFR route/altitude you were originally given, and they can route you right straight out at the nearest exit point if their workload requires that.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Check the ATC Handbook, section 7-9 -- separation standards are different for VFR aircraft, so a new clearance is required.

Noooo, the controllers responsibilities changed somewhat. If the controller feels the need to issue a new clearance s/he will do so. But a new clearance isn't "required" as you state, and it certainly is not required to contain an altitude and route as you claim. The controller may choose to let the now VFR pilot wander at will while the controller keeps all other traffic well removed. Or there may not be any other traffic.

A good example was a flight one late Saturday night when I requested a VFR flight into SFO Class B via "sightseeing over the city followed by southbound over the peninsula to south of SFO, then east back to Sacramento." With those words I pretty much requested a random flight through the entire Class B. The controller didn't assign an altitude or a route, he simply replied, "Cleared as requested."

Note also that controllers are supposed to keep those aircraft clear of IFR departure/arrival routes. If you cancel IFR in B-space, you are going to get new routing and altitudes,

Maybe. But the debate at hand is not whether or not you might get a new route/altitude (you might wether you remain IFR or cancel and become VFR). The debate is whether assigning new altitude & route is required (your claim) or not (my claim). There is nothing in either the ATC handbook or the FARs supporting your claim. "As requested" is an acceptable ATC response.

and you can't insist on keeping the IFR route/altitude you were originally given, and they can route you right straight out at the nearest exit point if their workload requires that.

Now that is one point I don't think anyone but you has either suggested or is arguing.

Don't know about your experience, but I've been cleared into Class B "as requested" in reply to the simple statement from me "VFR to Smallville". No route, no altitude. IOW, I say again--an altitude assignment and a route assignment are not required in Class B. The applicable reg (I'll post it so you don't have to scroll or go on a snipe hunt):

§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.


In the example under discussion the pilot obtained a clearance (IFR) prior to entering. With respect to 91.131 he is good to go once inside whether he maintains IFR or cancels and proceeds VFR. No where do the regulations require the pilot to retain the clearance (IFR or VFR) used to enter once inside. If that is what the FAA wanted they would make that statement. We need a clearance to enter. Once inside we can change IFR to VFR, or request IFR from VFR. Either way approval to enter the B airspace is old news--changing our current status does not rewrite history.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, Ed, you may have a technical point, but in all my years of flying in TCA's/Class B, I've never cancelled IFR inside one without getting a new route/altitude assignment. OTOH, I have on occasion been told that if I did cancel IFR, I would be sent right straight out or rerouted the long way around. So as a practical matter, it's important to find out what's behind door number 2 before you open it, because once inside, you are at the mercy of the controller.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Well, Ed, you may have a technical point, but in all my years of flying in TCA's/Class B, I've never cancelled IFR inside one without getting a new route/altitude assignment. OTOH, I have on occasion been told that if I did cancel IFR, I would be sent right straight out or rerouted the long way around. So as a practical matter, it's important to find out what's behind door number 2 before you open it, because once inside, you are at the mercy of the controller.

I don't disagree with the above at all and it is the practice I use, too.

However, Bryon's original question was whether or not one could cancel IFR within Class B without being then in a technical violation of 91.131 if the pilot doesn't receive another (VFR) Class B clearance. The correct answer is that no further clearance is required. Your comments that another clearance is required, which is incorrect, only serves to confuse the issue at hand.

 

[AirBaker]

It seems that you're only cleared 'into' class Bravo and not cleared 'in'. Seems like once you're in, you're in. I'd say they'd have to get rid of you first.

 

[RobertGerace]

On the class D thing...the thing that they were arguing about was:

1) Pilot takes off from Class-D airport
2) before pilot leaves class-d he cancels
3) controller thinks pilot leaves class-D
4) controller thinks pilot goes back into class-D without re-establishing comm
5) controller calls up pilot and says 'what gives'
6) etc...